pana af-100 vs. sony-f3
- Thread starter cckid
- Start date
I would love to have the F3. I could afford it too. But the sad fact of the matter is that not one of my clients would ever know the difference or care, and with the same lenses and my Nanoflash attached, I doubt any of them would be able to A/B identify one over the other. They might even like some quality of the AF100 image more. And even if they could distinguish them, would they pay $400 more per shoot day for an F3? No way. So as much as I would love to justify the F3, because I might like it more, I can't really justify it now. Your situation may be different.
Kenn Christenson
Well-known member
Always thought the F3 form factor didn't lend itself to the price Sony is charging. Now, put the guts of the camera into an over-the-shoulder, ENG/EFP from factor and the price makes a little more sense. Will be curious just how many of the F3s Sony will sell, compared to their EX1/EX3 lines.
djrockadoo
Active member
I'm confused where anyone sees the AF100 AVCCam codec as better than XDcam. I can make the Af100 choke with terrible macro block artifacting, similar to the 5d way before you can with an EX1. I love the AF100, but just saying, they aren't comparable cameras really. F3 and RED One are the only thing that come close and this is where the F3 kinda fails. Ease of post use of the footage is a big advantage of the F3 over the Red One, but the Red has a long scroll of reasons why its such a better camera than the F3... ENG news gathering is the only people i can see F3 making a lot of sense for., but then again, id probably go back to an AF100 for that. Its so in the middle of the road on usefullness vs. price point, seems pretty silly to me. But it will sell because its got the word Sony on it
XDCAM vs AVCHD
footage/proof please!
heres an article against your claim http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?190295-XDCAM-EX-vs.-AVCCAM
F3 as ENG
f3 isnt for ENG i believe. its a mini f35. the pl mount tells it so. id love to see a run n gun with an angenieux zoom wahahaha!
pl lenses arent the best for eng.
comparing a f3 to a red is like comparing af100 to a f3
djrockadoo
Active member
Saying the F3 is more mini F35 than ENG, but then saying its more comparable to AF100 than RED is pretty much a total contradiction. I work with a production agency that shoots probably on average 3 EX1 shoots a week. Ive shot two feature docs with the 5D, and now own the AF100. The AF100 and 5D break up much quicker than EX1 does, regardless of what any article says. I actually hate the EX1, at least by todays standards, so im not even defending it, I'd choose the AF100 in any situation over it, regardless of the macroblocking, but im just saying, it is what it is.
alexdias
Well-known member
I don't get it? ARe you saying that the images produced by the AF100 and 5D "break up" easier than the EX1? Is that in post? When manipulated?
Even then you choose the AF100 over the EX1 (so do I btw) but for what reasons?
There's been a lot of discussions about very specific situations and which camera is better, the truth is there's no perfect tool at this time. The F3 have some clear advantages over the AF100 but the price tag is disproportional for these benefits.
If, or when, the RED team deliver their "Epic-S" (or whatever will be called) we'll have a more suitable comparison for the F3.
Until then the AF100 seems like a very good cost/benefit option.
...Can you provide some proof to back this up?
Even a link to uncompressed full rez PNGs would be more than enough to get started. I've seen many posts with the same claims that you are making, but nobody is backing these claims up with actual proof, so their claims are pretty much meaningless. "Proof is in the pudding"
Brian@202020
Veteran
I can and have shown many people on set how easy it is to break up the EX1's codec. The Af100 is far more difficult to break the codec.
djrockadoo
Active member
Hey, I dont mean they break up in coloring when trying to manipulate the images. I mean, any slighter faster than average panning or movement in an AF100 or EX1 will start to macroblock, or break up. This is due to the B and or P frames (forgot how those codecs are laid out) being too "different" from the I frame it came from. It doesn't take much to be honest. shoot in say a concert venue with people rocking out, or maybe panning to follow a vehicle down the road in a city, step through that footage and you will see it. It can be almost unnoticeable in motion sometimes, other times it can look like a dog. but its precisely the reason codecs like Avc-Intra exist, they eliminate this problem all together. I'm just saying that from my experience and thats shooting a lot of performances, from nobodies, to Beyonce, Tina Turner, Pink, to Slipknot and back again, those types of phenomenons happen less on the EX1 than the 5D or AF100, in my experience.
I'm confused on how the RED One and F3 aren't comparable. Sony is asking about the same price, especially if you get a used RED One, which are easy to come by today. I wonder how quick RED will be to really bring out that Epic-S. They are really going to start muddying up the cost/performance line up with a RED One, a 2/3 Scarlet, FF35 Scarlet/Epic, Epic.... Does seem like a RED One is gonna be hard to justify once FF35 Scarlet is out regardless of price since its quite a bit more feature bang for the buck. Id think they'll keep that once for last and roll out all the others first to keep the RED One going as long as possible.
The reasons for AF100 over EX1 are mostly obvious, sensor size, interchangeable lenses, 1080 60p, etc. But overall, Sony has always had a sort of "video look" to me over Panasonic. Its a nice super sharp look, but just says video to me more than any line of Panasonic. just depends on what your looking for. i've shot stuff on a 100b that once graded, and just in webclip form people were convinced it was shot on 16mm. Can't say the same about EX1 footage.
I'm confused on how the RED One and F3 aren't comparable. Sony is asking about the same price, especially if you get a used RED One, which are easy to come by today. I wonder how quick RED will be to really bring out that Epic-S. They are really going to start muddying up the cost/performance line up with a RED One, a 2/3 Scarlet, FF35 Scarlet/Epic, Epic.... Does seem like a RED One is gonna be hard to justify once FF35 Scarlet is out regardless of price since its quite a bit more feature bang for the buck. Id think they'll keep that once for last and roll out all the others first to keep the RED One going as long as possible.
The reasons for AF100 over EX1 are mostly obvious, sensor size, interchangeable lenses, 1080 60p, etc. But overall, Sony has always had a sort of "video look" to me over Panasonic. Its a nice super sharp look, but just says video to me more than any line of Panasonic. just depends on what your looking for. i've shot stuff on a 100b that once graded, and just in webclip form people were convinced it was shot on 16mm. Can't say the same about EX1 footage.
heheh you didnt get my reply really. read it again and its not contradictory. comparing an f3 to a red ISNT a good comparison. its ike comparing a f3 to an af100 which isnt either! the price difference shows it.
also, its more logical for avchd to be more robust than mpeg2 at 35 mbps. atleast the article has an image to prove it.
Brian@202020
Veteran
I just did a short with the AF100 and have been editing for the last 2 days. There are 13 180 degree whip pans in the film. The rolling shutter is a bit of an issue, but macro blocking is a non issue.
Benjamin Eckstein
Well-known member
+1000
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
Just so that you are clear, the difference between MPEG4 (AVCCAM) and MPEG2 (XDCAM EX) is night and day. Take a look ath the Article on the comparing them under the articles section on this website. The reality is that AVCCAM is a Content Adaptive Codec and as such it is always assigning badwith to the part of the picture that needs it. Unlike XDCAM EX's which always quantizes in 8X8 blocks, this codec will macroblock way before the AVCCAM implementation of AVCHD. The AVCCAM implementation assigns by need of the picture, 4X4, 8X8, or 16X16 bolcks. Highly detailed gets the 4X4s and the Big expanses with no detail get the 16X16. There is also 8X16, 4X8. It is an intelligent codec. The B frames allow for looking back and forward before the compression takes place so that a real snapshot of real changes are recorded. There are a number of implementations in AVCHD and not all are equal, and not all use B frames or the same number of B frames. Some, like the DSLRs use an I and P frame only which will stress and macroblock way earlier than the AVCCAM implementation regardless of how many bits you throw at it. Both are in the 4:2:0 club, but the 24Mbs of AVCCAM can quite easily hold its own against the 35Mbs of XDCAM EX.
I hope this helps,
Jan
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Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
Not that that article is relative to the F3 at all, but concepts about dynamic range are there, but are relative to no camera in particular. That paper was written in 1991 by Larry Thorpe who at this time works for Canon and has done so for about 4-5 years.
Best,
jan
Brian@202020
Veteran
Thanks Jan for making this more clear to everyone. My experience with the EX series camera's is they are good for some things but completely horrible for others because of that. I can break the EX codec in seconds on set with barely trying. I have yet to break the AF100's codec on set, and not for the lack of trying. The only issue I've had with the codec is in post the 420 is a little bit of a bummer, but what can you do.
Bassman2003
Veteran
I have a question for AF-100 owners and or F3 owners.
My big problem with the EX-1/CMOS ilk cameras is that when any type of movement is introduced detail level goes down and a slight blurring takes over until the movement stops then everything all of the sudden gets sharp again. This is not motion blur but something that looks like the camera's internal processing is just overloaded and can not keep up. Now I don't care about the techno-bable of why this happens because visually you can see it and it happens, end of story! This does not happen near to the extent with the CCD cameras.
So, for AF-100/F3 users, do you see this behavior with the camera?
Is this something that will improve over time with CMOS read times?
Thanks
My big problem with the EX-1/CMOS ilk cameras is that when any type of movement is introduced detail level goes down and a slight blurring takes over until the movement stops then everything all of the sudden gets sharp again. This is not motion blur but something that looks like the camera's internal processing is just overloaded and can not keep up. Now I don't care about the techno-bable of why this happens because visually you can see it and it happens, end of story! This does not happen near to the extent with the CCD cameras.
So, for AF-100/F3 users, do you see this behavior with the camera?
Is this something that will improve over time with CMOS read times?
Thanks
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
I don't see this on my AF100. I do know what you are talking about though because I've seen some videos where I have seen this happening, though I don't remember which cameras they were.
Brian@202020
Veteran
This is a byproduct of Mpeg2 compression, and is exactly the problem with the XDCAM-EX codec. It has nothing to do with the CMOS chip. In my experience the AF100 does not behave like that. I am in the process of finishing a short I shot for a film competition. The film is due by 6pm Sunday and will be screened on the 3rd. I will post it online after that and you can see for yourself. I do 13 whip pans in it and the codec holds together way better than I expected it to. Now there is a bit of rolling shutter stuff going on with the whip pans and I'm debating on finding a fix before it goes online, but this is a different issue than what you are referring to.