PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

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frosty

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I make documentaries for TV shown primarily in PAL countries. I shoot DVCam & DV, and edit on Avid Xpress Pro and Avid Meridien Mac systems. My first chioce of medium is always film so I shoot 16mm when ever the budget permits (not often enough). Over the years I have experimented with various film-look tricks for DV footage including Cinelook and Magic Bullet. I'm looking for a way to avoid days of rendering the 3:2 pulldown look that I'm after so I now find myself seriously considering buying a DVX100. I have played with the NTSC version a bit and I really like the look of 24p footage displayed on an NTSC monitor.

Here's my question: Can the PAL version of the camera give me a similar filmic look in 25p mode when the footage is eventually interlaced for PAL TV broadcasts? Also, are there any Mac AVID Xpress Pro users out there that can confirm Xpress Pro can edit 25p yet?
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

I don't think you'll notice a real difference between 24p and 25p. It should have a very filmic look to it.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

The PAL version, shooting 25p, will deliver the same motion "signature" as film shot at 25fps and telecine'd to PAL videotape.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

filmic look in 25p mode when the footage is eventually interlaced for PAL TV
Click to expand...
???

You will see always interlaced pictures on a TV. If 24p/25p or not, if PAL or NTSC.

24p/25p looks same.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

Horse- I agree. I don't think I could tell the difference between 24p or 25p viewed on a 30fps NTSC monitor. It's probably got that filmic look I'm after. Problem is people watch these programs I'm making on 25fps PAL TV's.

My question is for folks who have worked with both the PAL & NTSC version of the DVX100. I'm guessing part of the look of this camera comes from the progressive frame and an even bigger part of it from the motion signature (pull-down) of 24p being viewed on at 30fps on NTSC equipment.

Barry have you worked with the PAL DVX100 in a PAL environment? I'm guessing that since there is no "motion signature" transferring 25fps film to PAL (it's an even trade 1 frame film for 2 fields). The PAL version of the DVX100 looses out on this temporal conversion that it's NTSC cousin gains shooting 24p for video destinations. I can't imagine that 25p footage on a PAL TV is going to give the same feel as 24p going at 30fps. Please tell me I'm wrong and lack imagination so I can go buy the PAL DVX100.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

Hi frosty,
If you like I can export a few scenes 25P for you so you can watch for yourself. If you want it full DV it'll be a quite big file, but that's ok with me.

Let me know, and I'll get you something until tonight. :)
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

Johan- I checked out your website. I wasn't aware that The DVX100E has a 25p cine mode. How does that differ from 25p normal mode? Is it just different gama set-ups?

I searched a bit and people say the 25p cine mode has a nice film look. So maybe the filmy-look has more to do with progressive frames and the original frame-rate than NTSC 3:2 pulldown.

If you can export some short DV footage for me that would be great.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

[quote author=frosty link=board=Events;num=1106265151;start=0#4 date=01/21/05 at 02:17:43]Please tell me I'm wrong and lack imagination so I can go buy the PAL DVX100.[/quote]
You're wrong, and you lack imagination. Go buy the PAL DVX100A.

:)

Seriously, watch any made-for-TV movie on your PAL TV... that's film shot at 25 fps, transferred 1:1 to PAL video. Looks just like a movie, right? So will the 25p of the DVX100A in PAL territory.

It's not the pulldown that makes 24p look like a movie over here, it's the frame rate of 24fps. PAL 25p is 25fps, as opposed to regular PAL television which is 50 fields per second. The difference is that the 25p will look like a movie on a PAL television set.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

Barry thanks for the encouragement.

I usually to use the old Digidesign Cinemotion plug-in (simulates the pull down effect) to get my look and then putting Cinelook, Filmdamage, or Magic Bullet on top of that. I'm looking forward to seeing what the Panasonic PAL DVX100 can do.

When does the HDV 720P version ship again?
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

HDV 720p? Have to look to JVC for that... Panasonic's not going to do one (at least not initially, they're going to do DVCPRO-HD). Maybe Canon will do a 720p HDV, but if past trends are any indication, it will likely be a couple of years down the road (although, for some reason, I *really* expect them to strike with an HDV GL2-type camera soon...)

And I expect that Sony will *never* ship HDV 720p. So, the most likely bet for 720p HDV would be JVC.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

[quote author=frosty link=board=Events;num=1106265151;start=0#6 date=01/21/05 at 06:49:47]Johan- I checked out your website. I wasn't aware that The DVX100E has a 25p cine mode. How does that differ from 25p normal mode? Is it just different gama set-ups?[/quote]
Yes, it's just a different gamma and matrix setup. It will make the color look more like film. The ability to shoot progressive (25P) will do the trick with motion.

If you can export some short DV footage for me that would be great.
Click to expand...
I noticed I currently don't have any good (much motion) material on my video drive, and didn't really have the time to capture today either. I did however throw together a few old clips I found there. I did a WM9 coding for now, but can of course give you the native dv as well. I just thought I'd see if I could get you some more suitable footage first.

Here's the WM9 file (8.5 MB):
http://www.techcrew.se/25p.wmv

This was shot in 25P with the DVX100 (PAL) with letterbox that I removed in post. Unfortunately I have no idea about settings used for these scenes.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

Barry- So you think Canon's next on the HDV bandwagon. Inneresting... I wish Sony & Canon were making 720p HDV gear.

Johan thanks for the clip. Very nice footage. You did a nice slow rack focus on the ducks. That was another of my concerns- the feel of the focus & zoom rings. I really miss a hard-stop on the Sony PD150. It seems Panasonic has the best manual focus & zoom controls of the bunch.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

Unfortunately the DVX100 does not have any hard stops. The feel of the zoom (in non-servo mode) is not all that great either, but has been improved on the DVX100A version.
To my knowledge there are no cameras in this class (excluding the XL with real lenses) that have the hard-stops.

With that said, if you are looking for a 25P camera that "looks like film" in this class then it's definetely the DVX100. Overall it's a great camera both in standard (50i) and progressive (25P) modes.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

Someday...

I wish Panasonic would make a small MiniDV (or better yet, 720p HDV) camera with hard-stop focus & zoom rings, 3-chips, good glass up front, a crisp b/w viewfinder... even if it was too expensive for me to buy, I'd rent it for production.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

Panasonic doesn't make that camera, but Canon does. Get an XL2 with the 16x manual lens and the optional viewfinder. It would cost about $6500, but it'd do everything you describe.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

Thanks Barry. I got to spend an hour with the XL2 last week. I'll be looking for a PAL rental unit on my next project in Sweden.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

Well if you need a PAL 25P cam on your project, you can always mail me.

The only downside is that this cam don´t come of my hand ;)
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

so the dvx at 25p will look more filmatic then a 3ccd pd170150vx2100 etc etc on pal 25fps tv's? ??? becaus these only record at 50i and 25p is different to 50i in pal correct?

Also is Barrys book usefull if your a pal user?

thanks heaps.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

[quote author=ST_ link=board=Events;num=1106265151;start=15#17 date=02/20/05 at 03:29:02]so the dvx at 25p will look more filmatic then a 3ccd pd170150vx2100 etc etc on pal 25fps tv's? ??? becaus these only record at 50i and 25p is different to 50i in pal correct?
[/quote]

Definitely. It has to do with 1) the progressive shooting, which will give you that filmic feel in the motion, 2) the gamma and matrix settings which makes your colors and exposure look closer to what film does.

The big difference though is the difference between shooting true progressive (25P) and interlaced video (50i).

Remember though that there are so many other things that makes it look filmish/non-filmish. Depth of field, framing, aspect ratios, how you handle the camera and most important of all... the lighting! In the end motion pictures is all about painting with light. With good filmic lighting and the other aspects mentioned above you can make any consumer camera look pretty filmish. With that said, yes, the DVX100 with it's 25P and cine-settings will bring it to another level.
 
Re: PAL Cine-Look for video (without 24p)

...and yes, Barry's book is a good help for us PAL-people as well. If you are trying to learn the camera it's worth every penny.
 
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