F3: Pair of used F3's for 10K or one F5? A & B cam dielmna

G

Geebri

Member
As an owner / operator I've looked into taking the plunge and getting an F5 up and running but quite honestly won't risk a 20 K business investment in the current UK economic climate. In reality I have around 10 k (ex vat) to invest in total So as an existing FS100 owner looking to add a second video camera as a B camera instead of using a Canon 5D MKIII (I also shoot stills) I am sorely tempted by the prospect of the used F3s that are now cropping up quite regularly.

A top criteria for me is to have cameras that match at the shoot stage to limit the time in post and I was just going to go and get a second FS100 but the prices of the used F3's made me sit up and rethink.

1) So do I get a second FS100 (some good bargains emerging in UK right now).
2) Go for a used F3 (selling around 4-5K in UK recently) - question is how easy are they to match in camera?
3) Sell my existing FS100 and get two used F3's for about 10K GBP which is around my upper spend limit.

I should add that I have two CP.2 lenses for A & B cams so the mount change issue can be easily resolved.

I really do like the benefits of two identical cameras for ease of operation, spares etc and of course the picture profile settings matching as a lot of my cuts have to have subject / colour continuity.

Have to say the prospect of two F3s for 10K is an interesting one. Dilemmas eh? (doh soz about the title typo!)


Brian
 
Hey,
to me it seems very wise to go with the F3s. to be honest, you won't see much of a difference to the F5 in 1080p. yes, you get a stop more and highe frame rates, but the general picture on both is outstanding for the money.
even the internal codec isn't as bad as everyone thinks! ( specially compared to fs100 and fs700)
i don't know if i'd get two though, for the fs100(which i haben't worked with) seems ok and you've got to remember that the new f's will drop their price too after 2years as well...and there will be lots of f3s around on the used market for some time...
in general i think that the f55 will hold it's value better, still it' not coming cheap.
 
I think for the moment, pairing a used F3 as an A-cam with your FS100 as B-cam is probably the way to go. Two F3s would be a better situation for various reasons obviously, but only go that route if it makes sense economically, or in terms of workflow (it sounds like workflow might be the priority for you, so in that case two F3s makes a lot of sense).

The real advantage to the F3 lies in it's 10-bit output and SLOG, so you need to factor in an external recorder as well (a hyperdeck 2 is the cheapest option at the moment - but other recorders offer fuller feature-sets).

The image quality the F3 puts out won't be rendered 'obsolete' any time soon. So (especially at the remarkably cheap prices they're going for) I think it's a pretty safe investment really.
 
Krost-audiovisual and Grug thanks for your input. The F55 is definitely not a consideration for me and thinking about it I think potentially the difference between what the F5 would give me and the FS100 might be too obvious, I really want to avoid that B cam is near but still clearly different look. I like the FS100 and have just about found my sweet spot with it and I can get the 5D III pics close now but its a lot of tweaking for shorter turnaround stuff and the end result is still noticable. Maybe the thing to do is go with one F3 to start see how it works as A cam to my FS100, if its not working without a lot of profile tweaking then sell the FS100 and get a second F3.

You are right though I want to get back to using identical cameras - I was spoiled for a while working with three 5D IIs on shoots in an exclusively DSLR phase and it was so easy to dial them all in to match perfectly, I tend to work on sticks one locked off and one operated / monitored, two angles same scene. Ideally I want to be able to drop one camera on each set of sticks, set 'em upo the same and know that when I get to the edit the pictures are already matching so that whatever I do with one in post I can apply to the other. If I sell the FS100 then a pair of F3s will be even more in budget!

Ineterstingly coming from a primarily stills background until I started shooting films about 8 years ago, I was quite happy to embrace the DSLR movie revolution when it arrived, however a few years on I am now firmly of the opinion that I want to keep my stills and film gear largely separate. I have 5DIIs not for for the video but for their stills abilities, and I want a similar situation with my motion picture set up. IME switching a DSLR from stills to movies mode isn't a momentary thing and I always found that i had to set them up for one or the other, so its DSLRs for still and motion pic cameras for the movies for me.
 
I'd agree with the others in recommending that you go with a F3, bought used they are now and will continue to be great value for the money now the F5 / F55 cameras hit the market and many F3 owners feel that want to move up.

But why would you want to own two F3's ? Will all your shooting be with A & B cameras?

If you plan to shoot two cameras all the time I can understand wanting two F3's but if you're only shooting a two camera setup less than 50% of the time I'd rent the second camera for those occasions.......Then with the money you would have spent on the second F3 that would spend too much time being idle I'd put that cash into some PL glass.
 
Hi Peter, thanks for your thoughts, two cam shoots are core for me, I'd be renting every month and a lot of what I do has to be flexible weather dependant last minute stuff so renting isn't always practical, hence the ownership angle.

I've seen used FS100's regularly go for 2.5-2.8 K GBP this past month and sometimes even new bodies are now going for 3-3.5 K by shopping around but the price difference between that and a circa 5K used F3 make the latter very appealing. Those sorts of figures are what sway me towards owning rather than renting. I suppose its what happens when new cameras emerge early adopters pay a premium but second generation users can get some real value for money.
 
One question if I go for the F3 - what would you consider to be a low hours camera, medium hours and a high use, I've seen some F3s with under 300 hours use and others with over 500 hours.
 
neither of those sounds very high, especially as there are no moving parts to wear. i'd be more concerned with how it was treated, that all the threaded mount points are in good shape, along with buttons etc. clean sensor and lens mount area. it's a buyer's market, so pass on anything that isn't clean and pretty.

what will really make a "deal" on an f3 is what odds and ends are included in the package. lens adapter, power, viewfinder, baseplate/shoulder mount... that stuff really adds up quickly.
 
Geebri said:
One question if I go for the F3 - what would you consider to be a low hours camera, medium hours and a high use, I've seen some F3s with under 300 hours use and others with over 500 hours.
Click to expand...

200-300 hrs would be good, but I wouldn't worry too much about a camera that has more hours on it as long as it seems to have been looked after well, i.e.: no knocks and dings etc. Testing it out first or having it checked by a Sony service place would however be something I'd try to do before buying camera with a lot of hours on it. Checking that there's no dead pixels and so on. However, unlike film cameras that have mechanical movements that wear, move out of adjustment and need servicing on a regular basis there's not much to "wear out" with digital cameras. Find a "owner user" if you can and one that's ok with you having the camera checked before you complete the deal.
 
Hi again,
i presume once you'll really dive into the F3 and Slog you'll find it hard to sacrifice IQ to match it to the FS100 albeit possible...
still i think a great decision to get one. And once you're used to ergonomics you will never want to go back to VDSLR.
I might sell mine with batteries, SLog Option, 32gb card, berkey topplate, transvideo bottom plate, and a samurai with 256gb SSD plus 500gb spinning drive in March, but i'd like the buyer to come 'round and check out the camera and thoroughly test it... and as i'm from Tirol, Austria that might not work for you...
 
I think matching a F3 and FS100 wouldn't be a problem, but only if you don't shoot S-log on the F3. If you are not going to shoot S-log, you might as well save 3K and get a second FS100. S-log is what makes the F3 attractive.
If you want S-log and need to shoot with 2 cameras, I would go for 2 F3s. Grug is right. "The image quality the F3 puts out won't be rendered 'obsolete' any time soon". It will only become obsolete when 1080p becomes obsolete and it will take a long, long time for that, specially for TV. I just don't see it on the horizon the day TV stations will stop accepting 1080p. To be honest I agree that in 1080p the F5 wont really add anything substantial. People are just dumping the F3 like crazy because most just care about having the latest toy, unless those who are also buying the 4K recorder. Another reason I would vote for 2 F3s besides the possibility of shooting S-log is that I really dislike the FS100 and FS700. I passed on both cameras because I just can't put up with the glorified DSLR form factor and lack of standard features a professional camera should have, such as HD-SDI, built-NDs etc. The FS700 solved some of these problems but it still have the same odd shape, with the awkward LCD position and it's even bigger, which makes it even more cumbersome. Although even the F3 is missing some professional features I really like to have, such as a waveform monitor. (missing from the whole Sony line for some reason it seems. Hopefully the F5/55 will finally add that.). But the F3 feels more like a "real" camera and you will love shooting with it. Once you move on from a FS100 to a F3 you will never look back.
So, even if a little biased, I would vote for 2 F3s if you really have the need for 2 cameras. :)
 
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Apply the K.I.S.S. principle whenever possible. Keep it simple. You can match an FS100 to an F3 with some time wasting tinkering, and then when you change an F3 setting you'll have to tinker some more or waste more time in post. You're not getting paid for tinkering.

You may not be using S-Log now, but it expands the usability of the F3, and with a version of S-Log being free now there's no reason not to use it when it will help you. The FS100 looks nice, but in about 10% of the situations the F3 looks better (S-Log is exposed differently though. Another reason to not mix.)

Two F3's will let you spend more time shooting and allow you to make more money if you're able to utilize your time.
 
I use an F3 with an FS100 for B-cam (and sometimes A-cam, depending on the project) and a pair of Sony 5n's for C cams. 4 cams for under 20k, and ability to shoot a wide gamut of project types.
 
I would sell your FS and buy two F3's. I'm actually suprised at how low they are selling for, I could only have dreamed to get a camera like this 5 years ago for under $10,000 used.
 
I would opt for 2 F3's if you need to shoot that style with 2 cameras. I personally have a Canon DSLR, 1 EX1 and 1 F3 to cover all shooting scenarios in which I'm involved. The F3 will produce stunning images and right now I think prices are bottoming out. I believe some stability will return to F3 prices after the initial sell-off for F5's. So now is the time to find a deal.

Ned
 
I definitely agree with Ned, if you're thinking of getting an F3 now is the time while prices are low. I also believe these low prices will only be around until used F3's find a new home while many shift over to F5/F55.
 
Plenty of food for thought in all of the above thanks for your input. This is how I am thinking at the moment, its either stick with the FS100 and add another or sell the FS100 and go for two F3s, I do not really want to mix the two (unless Richard has any tips for making them match) as I know I really want to avoid the tinkering aspect above all else. A downside is having to purchase two PL mounts for my EF CP.2s which is gonna be the best part of a grand but I agree that the F3 prices at the moment are just ridiculously good value.
Brian
 
i don't want to keep banging the same drum, but you can easily drop $5k just outfitting an f3. one f3. it may not be necessary depending on what kind of shooting you do. but keep that in mind before you go selling of a functional rig you already have.
 
Buy one F3, rig it out, get used to the workflow, and then you will have a lot more information on which to base a decision. Who knows, if your business picks up, you might then want to buy an F5. ( just saw a live demonstration in Boston last night, and this is an amazing camera).
 
Jim's solution is a good one in my view. Stick with your FS100, get an F3 and work with it a bit. At that point you will know if you want to swap out your FS100 for another F3 or not. You may in fact find the form factor of the FS100 is still useful for handbombing but you may find your FS100 sits in a bag most of the time. You won't know until you try and it seems you have to luxury of trying this out.
 
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