P2 reliability

L

lycanent

New member
I've been going back and forth trying to figure out whether a Firestore or P2 cards with P2 store would be a better choice. Both seem to have their own pros and cons. I've searched the forums and tried to get some answers on different sites, but nothing speaks the truth like hearing it from the actual users, so here are my questions:

How many people here with the P2 cards have had issues with corrupted files or non-reparable files? What happens if you are uploading footage to a P2store and recording on the 2nd card, but run out of space? Will that last file be corrupted or will it just end as if you had stopped recording manually?

How many people here with the Firestore have had issues with the flimsy firewire connection or have had issues with their data mucking up and mysteriously disappearing? It seems like I've seen several posts talking about how long recording times can result in a loss in all of the footage, but is that typical?

I'm very excited to step into the HD world, but I'm a little skeptical of the lack of tape based recording. Not that tapes were flawless (far from it in fact), but I wan to make sure that whichever method I decide on the record the HD footage (which currently seems to be either Firestore or P2 store) will be the least of all evils, so to speak.
 
I had the same dilemna but I can tell you that P2 cards blow tapes out of the water. The reliability and dependability that I get from using P2 cards far surpass tapes. Since they don't have moving parts they are much more reliable than anything currently out, including the Firestore drive.

The only good thing about the Firestore is that you get longer recording times which after thinking about it, was actually a disadvantage because if you lose 90+ mins of footage, it would be a disaster. I currently have 3 8gb cards and it works great with my current workflow.
 
I haven't had any issues with the P2 cards and/or the p2store. Been so dependable and worth the money. Shooting tape from time to time just feels funny now...

I think that both have their place and depends upon the type of shooting you'll be doing. I'm mostly doing narrative short record time pieces. If I were doing video depositions or something that requires a huge amount of recording times then i'd have opted for the firestore or something else...
 
Everything indicates that P2 is easily the most reliable method of recording around. I haven't been using the P2 store but I've never had a drop out or currupted files (those only tend to happen if you lose power during a shot). The FS100 is getting better with firmware updates but it's still not as reliable as P2.
 
Thank you all for the replies. I am really leaning towards the P2 cards/ P2 store combo. My work is narrative, so I'm thinking three 4GB cards or two 4GB cards and one 8GB card (for unusually long takes or for those times when you just really want to keep the camera rolling) would be ideal.

I edit on FCP, and I know I'll need the 5.1.2 update (I'm currently waiting on my 5.1 crossgrade now). It seems the bugs have been worked out, from the posts that I've read.

Those of you who have responded-- do you edit on PC or FCP? If you edit on FCP, have you encountered any issues with importing the data from the P2store into FCP?
 
Everyone forget that with P2 you dont have to take a long 10 or 15 minutes shots. THis is not Tape this is P2. To break a scene without breaking the continuty is just leave the Pre record funtion to 3 sec and then you can break any long shots to 2 minutes shots without breaking a single audio, video or TC. This is really bealivable when you do it. No need to ingest 20 or 30GB of footage at the same time. break the interview create the small shots with multiple thumbnals and there you go. You can then join it in timeline and you want miss thing.

THis is a P2 world you have to think differently then shooting 40 minutes of one clip on two cards.
 
lycanent said:
Thank you all for the replies. I am really leaning towards the P2 cards/ P2 store combo. My work is narrative, so I'm thinking three 4GB cards or two 4GB cards and one 8GB card (for unusually long takes or for those times when you just really want to keep the camera rolling) would be ideal.

I edit on FCP, and I know I'll need the 5.1.2 update (I'm currently waiting on my 5.1 crossgrade now). It seems the bugs have been worked out, from the posts that I've read.

Those of you who have responded-- do you edit on PC or FCP? If you edit on FCP, have you encountered any issues with importing the data from the P2store into FCP?
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I edit on a PC but there a plenty of people editing on the MAC as well . . . just personal preference (and what I was already heavily invested into).

With a P2Store and a couple of 4gig cards you can go indefinately (I have 3 cards, but the third one is just icing on the cake--really not needed). When card 1 fills the camera automatically starts recording to card 2 (so you can forget all about that pre-record button nonsense) . . . you just pull the full card and dump it to the P2Store, format it (in the P2Store) and continue to march. No magic, no fuss, no muss . . . it get pretty easy quickly. So don't worry about long cuts because you just continue to record until you fill up the P2Store and your cards . . . with 2 4gig cards and a P2Store that would be up to about 170 minutes -- that long enough for you?

best.
 
I've been using the FS-100 (keeping up with the latest firmware updates) and haven't lost anything yet. And we shoot in some very harsh conditions, too. I got one of the first ones out and have been super happy with it since. I have gotten corrupted files off of P2 cards. I only had two corrupted shots on the FS-100, but both were accidentally hitting record, and were less than two seconds long, so they don't count. I trust my FS-100 with all my footage for a very important, very large documentary porject. It's rugged and as reliable as a P2 card. And I need way longer recording times than an 8GB P2 card can deliver.
 
BenB said:
. . . It's rugged and as reliable as a P2 card. And I need way longer recording times than an 8GB P2 card can deliver . . .
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Ben- Barry spoke about having dropped his P2's a couple of times . . . I would not recommend that with the FireStore (or P2Store).

I can record longer than you can (continuously) with your FireStore utilizing my P2Store and 2 or 3 four gig cards. I am also working on a documentary.

Just making a point (and I think helping make yours), the P2, P2Store, AND the FireStore are all temporary (or perhaps more appropriately "intermediate") storage solutions which permit us to capture the fine images the HVX-200 is capable of. I considered the FireStore but then decided to go with the P2/P2Store solution . . . and I have been quite happy with it -- and I have NEVER experienced a dropped frame or corrupted file (to date).

Either combination of the above solutions will get the job done with few limitations. I like the fact that I can power the camera & P2Store with the same battery (and AC adapter) that came with the camera, and how inexpensive the additional (DVXUSER) batteries are. I also like the portability and lack of bulk/weight of the P2Store v. FireStore setup. Both are good solutions -- I have little doubt that, had I gone the FireStore route (unavailable when I made my initial decision), I would be equally as happy as having gone that way instead.

I had been hoping the CinePorter would come into existence much earlier than it appears will happen -- odds are I will augment my arsenal with the FireStore device before too much longer . . . and having digested your comments thoroughly will make that purchase much more palatable, so thanks for that!
 
I wanted the CinePorter, but there are issues they're working on, but yet to solve, and it's just too long in coming. I went FS-100 as it was cheaper than the P2Store, and lighter. I almost went P2Store, but I need very long capture times that don't allow, in my situation, pulling and replacing P2 cards on the fly. I have situations I need to set the camera, and not be near it for awhile. P2Store still makes me have to swap out cards.

Each device has it's pros and cons. Too bad the CinePorter is taking so long to release. And in the dusty, misty conditions I'm in most of the time, open P2 slots are not an optioni, unless I want to ruin my camera really fast.

So I went FS-100 because I have to do long, non-stop recording that won't fit on P2 cards, and the situation doesn't allow for swaping them out on the fly.

No, I'd never drop an FS-100, but then, neither would I want to drop a P2Store or a CinePorter. If someone made a 100GB P2 card, that'd solve all my problems. But, I don't see that happening any time soon.

As for batteries, I consider the Panny's batteries heavy. Someone on here reported mounting an LCD on the handle that used a Panny battery, with an FS-100 (which is light as a feather), and the handle broke. Since I put the longer life battery into the FS-100, I've never run out of battery power on it. I've never had to remove or replace it. Charges in a fraction of the time the Panny batteries do, also. That was a concideration, as we're occationally recharing batteries in the field off of generators or car power converters, so time recharing is time I spend praying the chargers don't fry out (power generators and car power converters really shouldn't be used for this, but we don't have much choice).

Like Matt from Focus says, the FS-100 and the CinePorter and the P2Store will all have individual situations they are each better suited for. There is no one solution to fit every situation and environment.
 
I am hesitant to use a firestore or cineporter because all of your footage ends up on a disk - drop it and its gone. The P2 cards are VERY resilient - probably could drop them from a 5 story window and have it not break. Until the footage is on 2 other locations (drive and dvd or something like that) I dont delete a card.
 
How often to you drop your camera, which is more bulky and heavier? If you're afraid of dropping the FS-100, I'd also worry the same amount about droping your camera.

Besides, with the Bebob Box-FS or the JimmyBox, it stays on your camera. Sorry, I find fear of droping it a pretty lame excuse, just to be honest. There are other very valid reasons to stick with P2 cards only, but most of us using the FS-100 haven't come close to ever droping them. I don't see it as an issue.

But, each shooter has to go with what they feel comfortable with. I so lots of shoots on boats and in water, rocking, suddent jolts, never worried about droping anything, with some minor thinking before hand.
 
"lame excuse" - thats very constructive.

Ok - lets say you are shooting something that you can only get ONCE - an exploded building, a natural event, your childs birth, or just your actors one and best performance etc. Once it is shot, if you lose it, you cannot get it back - EVER. So now it is on a disk based device - disks are WAY more prone to faults and failures then solid state memory (where the probability of a fault is essentially zero).

Ok - so now your camera - if you drop it - can you get another - yes of course. But that footage is gone forever and cannot be recovered. Camera =replacable (even if expensive) - footage= not replacable at all.

Doesnt seem like a lame reason if you are shooting something worthwhile now does it?

And this is the same issue I have with using dvrack as a primary recording technology - while the software package is simply amazing - having footage on a hard disk for a period of time means that sooner or later you will have a data loss.
 
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I think he probably just meant that, in the scheme of considerations, it is not a front-runner? (I would agree with that).

I think we're all pretty much in agreement that regarding durability, P2 is probably the winner.
For ease of use with longer record times (and decent portability), FireStore is king.

Unless someone has some really earthshaking new info we might want to let this one fade to black . . .
 
smelni said:
"lame excuse" - thats very constructive.

Ok - lets say you are shooting something that you can only get ONCE - an exploded building, a natural event, your childs birth, or just your actors one and best performance etc. Once it is shot, if you lose it, you cannot get it back - EVER. So now it is on a disk based device - disks are WAY more prone to faults and failures then solid state memory (where the probability of a fault is essentially zero).

Ok - so now your camera - if you drop it - can you get another - yes of course. But that footage is gone forever and cannot be recovered. Camera =replacable (even if expensive) - footage= not replacable at all.

Doesnt seem like a lame reason if you are shooting something worthwhile now does it?

And this is the same issue I have with using dvrack as a primary recording technology - while the software package is simply amazing - having footage on a hard disk for a period of time means that sooner or later you will have a data loss.
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You are going to have to transfer your footage to disk at one point anyway so regardless of the fact that you use the P2 you still will be at risk of losing the footage if a drive fails once you transfer it.
 
as long as the footage is on a P2 card it is safe - solid state is safe. So you copy to more then one location - either 2 drives or a drive and a dvd etc - then you can delete the card - with a disk based capture the footage is on a single drive (which fails) until you offload the footage - and you will likely have a lot of footage at a time in this vulnerable state.

It just seems obviously dangerous to me as an I.T. person
 
As a retired professional IT Engineer, with many years of experience with hard drives in various devices in hazardous environments (most of my work was in the off shore oil construction industry) hard drives are safe enough for this type of work.

But you still ignore the fact that there are situations where P2 cards don't hold nearly enough footage, without breaking the bank buying dozens of them. And eventually, you have to go to hard drive anyway.

If you're only talking about time on the shoot, hard drives are plenty safe enough. Yes, the do all fail eventually, but 90 percent of them last for years and years and years. I have five that are all over eight years old that still run just fine. Since I became a compouter tech on my first IT job many, many, many years ago, I've only personally owned four drives that physically crashed.

So, although theoretically, your statement that hard drives are a vulnerable state is actuate, it is not realistic to be that paranoid about them, based on real world statistics.

And to state that a P2 card is 100 percent safe is simply not true. It may be very safe, but if you drop one in water, it's gone. If it gets zapped in an electrical storm, it's gone. If you drop it off a 50 story building, it's gone. If any of it's dozens of internal electrical parts fail, it's gone. It may be safer than a hard drive, but it's not bullet proof.

I have shot literally hundreds of hours with my FS-100, never lost anything. It's still working fine. And the other documentary producers I know using hard drive recording devices confirm that it's a very safe medium. Focus has been selling these things for many years, and very few have lost valuable footage. It is, in real world statistics and use, a very reliable, safe way to shoot.

With the HVX, it is the only way to shoot HD footage in many situations. That is a fact that will not go away.
 
ok - so i am not saying there arent situations where you need to use a drive - doc style requires it of course - but I am saying that when possible, such as with narrative shoots, drives are not a safe option.

It is not disputable that hard drives fail MUCH MUCH more often then solid state - undisputable.

And, as an IT professional myself, I know that you cannot base a data retention system on anecdotal evidence. I have never had a hard drive fail on me - I also have never been in a car accident - but I still wear my seat belt.

The fact is, no bank or institution with critical data will leave it on one vulnerable source. Yes - P2 cards can fail - but it is far less likely then a drive. A drive can just stop spinning - a P2 card requires serious misuse to fail.

So that said - if I am filming something that cannot be reshoot I will never use a drive based system (at least without making the client aware of the vulnerability). If I can stand to lose a days worth of footage then I will use a drive for a day and then backup during the night. Its not paranoia - its decisions based on risk vs value of footage

It is simply undisputable that drive based workflows have vulnerabilities that a solid state and then backup based workflow does not.

Which would you choose to film your childs birth if length is not a factor?

So all that said - yes for longer format the firestore is the right solution.

Of course this is my view and opinion and it seems I am in the minority here. The story of my life :)
 
smelni said:
So all that said - yes for longer format the firestore is the right solution.
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For TODAY. With today's smaller cards. But optical disc and hard disk recording are interim solutions. They will be obsolete as soon as solid state storage gets large enough.

Just like with digital still cameras. When solid state cards were introduced, people found them too small, so they came up with the "microdrive"; tiny hard disks in the compactflash form factor. Larger capacity, yes. For a while. But now that solid state cards are not only large enough, but obscenely large (for still camera usage) does anyone bother with microdrives anymore? Of course not.

With video it will be the same way. I've got a Nokia N93, it records DVD-quality video and still pictures on miniSD cards. I bought two miniSD cards (so I'd have 4GB total) because I'm on a once-in-a-lifetime journey down here in India/Singapore/Malaysia. So far (I'm on the next-to-last day) I've gone through 500mB of one card. Not even 1/4 through my first miniSD card, the other one remains untouched. Would I rather have been using an external cabled hard drive recorder? Of course not. Solid state is large enough for this purpose (N93 videophone video recording) and it's the perfect solution, there can probably never be a better recording format.

So when we look at P2/solid state/hard disk in professional video, it is an inescapable conclusion: hard disk recording is temporary. Interim. It serves a very useful purpose right now, just as microdrives did for still cameras. But as soon as cards get big enough, there will be no reason to go to hard disk. I think for most people that point will be reached with 16gb cards. Two 16gb cards gives you 80 minutes of 720/24pN footage; that's almost as much as the FS-100 has been able to store for the last 7 months. And with 32gB cards you'll have almost three hours of storage in-camera. And with 64gb cards you'll have five hours of storage in-camera. And with 128gb cards you can have 10 hours of storage on-line, in-camera, at once. Can anyone seriously say that that won't be enough, and that we'll still need a hard disk recorder? I mean, yes I expect that hard disks will continue to get bigger, but so what? You'll have all you need with the existing card sizes.

And when the cards are large enough, you'll never "have" to go to a hard drive. Transferring to hard drive is also an interim workflow that we have to put up with because of two things: 1) limited card capacity, and 2) limited vision on the part of NLE developers. In EDIUS I never have to transfer to hard disk, I can edit straight from the cards. As cards get larger I expect that to become a more common workflow; eventually the whole offloading/transfer/rewrap workflow will just disappear and tapeless will become extraordinarily powerful.

So the FireStore is great for what it is -- a bridge product that gives us access to long recording times that we simply cannot get with the cards TODAY. And with the upcoming 3.0 firmware update it'll be even better. But it isn't the future; solid state is the future. In demos I drop the cards, I step on the cards, I pound 'em on the table, I do everything I can think of to show how sturdy they are. I would never do those things with a hard disk recorder (or even a P2 Store, regardless of how "rugged" it's designed to be!) And I keep threatening to drop them in water to show they're waterproof, but I haven't been brave enough to do that yet; however, Matt Siegel says that he left one in the back pocket of his jeans and washed it in the laundry, and it turned out just fine and works just fine.

Of course this is my view and opinion and it seems I am in the minority here. The story of my life :)
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I'm working on an article on tapeless workflow; I think it'll open a few people's eyes to what tapeless is and what it should be and what it will be... :)
 
Engineers measure these things, of course. They call it MTBF, or Mean Time Between Failure.

Even non-server hard drives have MTBF ratings in the tens of thousands of hours, but that's all statistics based on a bunch of them running in a lab somewhere, and computing the MTBF based on how many died and how quickly.

P2 cards must have a MTBF rating as well, but we don't know what that is -- at least I don't. The MTBF rating of P2 cards may in fact be lower than that of hard drives based on the number of write cycles that SD media can take. If you continuously rewrote the same location on a P2 card for the duration of a hard drive MTBF rating, I would think the P2 card would fail first.

Having said that, I would trust something with no moving parts and utter contempt for vibration, shock, temperature and other environmental factors alot more than I would trust a hard drive. Yes, the P2 card still has electronics that can fail, but so does the hard drive.

I've had only one hard drive fail on me (at work) in over 20 years of dealing with computers as a software engineer, but I've seen plenty of friends and acquaintances lose untold piles of information in my time. That's why I use redundant RAID configurations when possible, and why I make backups.
 
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