P2 & PCM way out

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khina

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first I hope this post is not a reloop.

P2 cards are extremely expensive now and later don't know how fast but will be cheaper. I don't know but i've been using the Fostex FR2 field recorder that can store audio datas on to PCM hard drives, the same as P2 cards in physical and demension. The PCM cards are really cheap and Toshiba just came out with an 8 gig (correct on this if i'm wrong).

my pondering mind is there has to be a way out of this P2 thing. I hope some genius company will come out with a third party P2 cards or find a way to store HD on to cheap regular PCM cards so that we can shoot HD cheaper, way cheaper.
 
I just shot a 16mm short, and the total cost of film (stock, developing, telecine) was around $1,600. With that, I could've bought one 8GB P2 card, had approximately the same amount of per-load runtimes (a 400ft. mag gives you about 11 minutes of shooting time), and spent about the same amount of money. But guess what - I'd then have that P2 card to use over and over again forever - whereas the film gets archived and never used again. Combine that with the advantages of random accessibility and no need for digital capture, and the choice isn't even a choice in my opinion. It all depends on the performance of the new camera, but if it's even half as good as it's been touted, I want as much P2 as I can get.
 
if you dont like the concept of P2 pricing ..you can record driectly to HDD on a laptop using HDRack or a firewire DVCPRO Hd compatable software package like your NLE.. or you can record direct to HDD on a firestore- HD .. or you can go straight out over firewire to a DVCPRO HD deck and record on DVCPRO HD tape.

theres plenty of ways around recording to P2.. but none of them are actually realistically both cheaper or better suited in the long run. I know that its hard to swallow .. were not all made of money, but if your going to step into the HD world.. things are going to be expensive.. this is the first and only camera that wil allow you to shoot a PRO HD format like DVCPRO HD without spending a minor fortune. the P2 cards are open for ANY manufacturer to make and sell as cheap as they can. they just have to meet panasonics quality control standards is all. so if it can be done cheaper.. it will be.

..and if it cant.. well .. IMHO .. they just brought PRO level HD aquisition down to earthly prices from being waaaaaay out in space land.. and im not about to complain that they didnt gift wrap it and stick it under my pillow in the middle of the night. theyve done a good good thing. and if i want to shoot HD .. ill pay the new vastly reduced cost for shooting HD.
 
Haakon has just answered with what i feel is the largest argument for P2.. the comparison to film, or even HD tape stock, is perfect, because both ways your spending at least the amount of 1 or 2 P2 cards on a feature... but p2 you have forever. Its kinda like the rent vs buy thing.. you really just rent film stock and tape stock, P2 you buy.

So the more you shoot, the more you save. I know even with the amount i have spent on DV tape (which I have yet every gone back to btw once i am done with) i could have bought half a dozen P2 cards.
 
I think the big scare for people and P2 cards is the fact that once we transfer the footage to a HDD via computer or whatever means we run the risk of losing the footage forever with computer and Hard Drive crashes. With DV tape, in the past we could always upload our footage once again from the source tape. The idea behind P2 (at least for the forseeable future) is that we shoot, dump, wipe the card, and then shoot some more. I don't know about the rest of you but I can at least burn through one DV tape on an all day shoot. At the very least one tape!!!

Lets say Im shooting outdoors, where do I plug in a PC or back up HD? Or lets say I can, what if theres a shortage of some kind.

Once you transfer to a hard drive a whole set of problems arise.

Honestly, I'll more than likely get the HVX200, the specs after are, after all, unmatched for a camera in that price range. I'm just not going to shoot anything in HD until I can get a p2 card to give me at the very least a full half hour of HD footage. I may even wait till I can get a full hour on one P2 card. Just so that I can shoot and them transfer the footage in a more controlled setting. Even then I will have my doubts. They need some sort of cheap back up system for the footage.

I mean really, Murphys Law is really doubled on a film set.
 
iamloser, are you saying I can do a "capture now" right on my FCP NLE? please tell me more about this capture hd directly to nle. thank you in advance.

what's the current biggest firestore hdrive nowaday?
 
...also the 16mm film analogy is nice but a little..uhh...off so to speak. Even after shooting film we still have the film. It doesn't get "recycled" and put back into the camera magazine. Once the footage is erased from a solid state P2 card, the only thing we can rely upon is the Hard Drive. Right, now someone quickly shout "BLU-RAY" or something. P2 is expensive. Is is worth it? Yes, but at the same time there is no inexpensive back up option that can match it's reliability and quality. This is the same exact reason digital camcorders stayed tape based for so many years.

Every camera used to photograph the new star wars film had a back up tape going simultaneously, but we don't have that kind of money. Were mostly low budget (i.e. no budget) independent filmakers, after all wasn't that the niche the HVX200 is going for?

This is one of the reasons HDV is still kind of appealing drop outs, artifacts, and all.

Suddenly a thought occurred to me (I'm no tech-head so bear with me) Since the HVX200 can output HD res via firewire, would it be possible to hook up a HDV deck or camera (Sony FX1 maybe?) to the HVX200 and record footage that way?

Just a thought, probably nothing more than a drunken pipe dream (it is 2 am and I've had a few)
 
Tibby said:
Suddenly a thought occurred to me (I'm no tech-head so bear with me) Since the HVX200 can output HD res via firewire, would it be possible to hook up a HDV deck or camera (Sony FX1 maybe?) to the HVX200 and record footage that way?

Just a thought, probably nothing more than a drunken pipe dream (it is 2 am and I've had a few)
Click to expand...

I'll try and be nice before everyone else gets here, so we don't have to see more obscene puppy parts...

Basically, HDV is not the same as the HD output of the HVX... the HVX output is far less compressed and thus won't be handled by an HDV device... and, as far as I can tell, none of the HDV devices can convert, say, HD component output signals to HDV. I wish it weren't so, but I don't think - for now at least - to get the HVX to talk to an HDV device except at SD... 'course, it would be great if they could...
 
I'll try and be nice
Click to expand...

Gee thanks... Nice passive/aggressive attempt at an insult. I would have preferred an insult outright.

So basically I asked a stupid question (I stated I was no tech-head). Thanks for 'ahem'... enlightening me.
 
Tibby said:
Gee thanks... Nice passive/aggressive attempt at an insult. I would have preferred an insult outright.
Click to expand...

Hey, Tibby, you know I love you. I actually spent a good half-hour of procrastination in researching whether any HDV devices convert composite/component to HDV. And I really am scared of pink puppy parts.
 
Well if my question was dumb at least it kinda sparked an idea...How about a portable deck that records to HDV from the HVX200 (i.e. converts the data stream coming from the HVX to HDV) Wait...even better...what if it could also double as an on set monitor? Like one of those Sony DV/Digital8 decks. Panasonic are you listening? A future upgrade? Hello? (insert the crickets chirping here) 'sigh'

Well that way everyone would be happy, but alas you can't please everyone.
 
Well -- first, a deck that records HDV is unlikely anytime soon. None of the HDV products on the market allow for analog-to-digital conversion. No HDV deck has analog inputs, and neither do the cameras. So trying to record the HVX's analog output on HDV won't happen anytime soon (and would degrade the HVX's image to HDV level, so why not shoot on an HDV camera in the first place?)

Second, if you want a product that can record the full DVCPRO-HD data stream, without compromise, and can double as an on-set monitor -- keep an eye on Serious Magic. If they can get HD Rack available soon, that could do exactly what you're asking, except without the compromise to HDV quality.
 
Yeah, I kinda already figured that, alas as I stated before...a pipe dream. Would it have to be analog to digital? My idea was a deck that would convert the HVX stream to HDV with firewire connection (or telekinesis). Merely pondering an idea here. Options, options options...My only thought was that with HDV and the HVX all the bases would be covered. From 480i thru 1080p, SD thru HD, 24p thru 60i, and you'd still have the option of going to tape for HD purposes for those who could live with a step down in resolution.

I've had a lot of external HD crashes recovering data is time consuming and not always possible. The idea of losing footage completely is, well...kind of scary.

Maybe the JVC HD100 will be the way to go (I plan on renting it as soon as it is available), but if the gamma curveson the HVX are anything like the DVX, well I may just go broke buying P2 cards.

I guess the real question I've been trying to ask with these round about, long winded tirades is this:

Is there a safe, cheap, and reliable backup option for P2 footage?
 
tibby, if you want to roll to tape, why not double your output out over firefire to a DVCPRO HD deck. you shold be able to record to P2 AND an external firewire device at the same time.

khina... if your NLE supports DVCPRO HD over firewire, than yes.. you can "capture" directly to the NLE firewire utility.. just like you can capture live DV to it now throgh firwire..

FCP HD and avid express pro HD and canopus edius all support DVCPRO HD over firewire.. it seems adobe's Premier pro will support it in the next version as well. and im heavily leaning towards the likelyhood that sony's vegas will too.
 
Well, "cheap" is always subjective. If you look at the HVX as having the same recording system as the $42,500 HDX400 AND, at the same time, offering the same recording system as the $70,000 VariCam, AND simultaneously offering the same recording format as the $27,000 SDX900, AND at the same time offering the same recording format as the $4000 DVX100A...

... yet sells for $9995 with two P2 cards ...

...that's awfully cheap already!

For low-cost ongoing operations, I think my main option will (hopefully) be Serious Magic's HD Rack software, recording onto dirt-cheap external hard disks.

And there will likely be other options as well. I've heard of a couple of independent development efforts that may offer some surprising options. Remember, it's months and months before the camera even comes out (at least three, maybe four). There's plenty of time for new technologies (or new takes on existing technology) to emerge.
 
Here's a cheap alternative to recording P2 for everyone:-)
Sorry I couldn't resist...


priorityelectronics_1851_5978680
 
I plan on using that very same setup.


Yes when weighed against much more expensive cameras it is cheap, but lets face it the HVX is trying to fill a niche: low budget filmakers used to DV. The thing is, 4 tapes never cost more than the camera itself.

People, it's all just wishful thinking on my part, I've already accepted P2 cards with an open heart (i.e. wallet)

I like the idea of HD Rack, except for the fact that I do all my editing with Final Cut Pro.
 
Brian Broz said:
Here's a cheap alternative to recording P2 for everyone:-)
Sorry I couldn't resist...


priorityelectronics_1851_5978680
Click to expand...

wow that's some genius Brian! yeah, something like that will work.
:grin:
 
We Mac users who don't have HD Rack indeed use FCP for the same thing. Works like a charm for SD, and though i've never personally had opportunity to try DVCProHD, it's a standard feature of FCP that people use every day (as opposed to the not-yet-available (or even announced?) HD rack). So, you're ahead of the game on that, and as long as you have a laptop, you've got everything you need.
 
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