P2 or tape workflow?

L

limo991

Carbonite Member
What is the advantage of P2 workflow? I will try to compare it with a tape DVCPROHD deck or HDCAM or DV or whatever.

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First the data on P2, HVX users please correct me if I get something wrong:

4gb cards store about 5minutes of 1080p if they are 4000gb and the format is 100mbits/sec.

A P2 store, the official Panasonic solution is advertised to have a speed of 4minutes for a 4gb P2 card with verify off. I guess that would be double the time for verify on.

I have to transfer the cards to P2 store while I'm shooting. I have to get someone to do that or stop shooting to initiate the procedure and switch cards while I'm shooting.

I can't monitor the footage for errors while I'm transfering so I have to do it later. But I can use verify and have slower transfers.

The transfer speed to Laptop varies from 4 to 3 minutes for 4gb card which is 5 minutes of footage without verify.

I have to disrupt my work to change cards every few minutes and always make sure there is a second card inside in case the first gets full.

If the producer wants the material I have to either take extra time to transfer the material to another hard disk at close to real time (2.5inch disks) or give him an expensive P2 store or laptop.

Later, I have to watch the footage for the first time in real time since this is something I need anyway. This is real time for me. Some might disagree.

I have no backup of the footage I'm watching. I need to make a backup of what's on P2 or transfer the P2 drive to a computer before editing in order to work on a backup. Some might disagree on this, but bad things happen. The backup procedure takes time. I imagine it takes the same with a P2 transfer since it uses a 2.5inch disk. Close to real time.

Time required: If everything works perfectly and I don't run out of space, I will have to watch the material in real time later. If I need a backup I also take the time to do one. This is close to real time again.

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The data on tape.

I shoot whatever I want without thinking about tape for one hour of footage. If tape ends I put another tape in and drop the old one to my pocked.

If the producer needs the tapes I simply give them to him.

Later I transfer the tape to PC while watching it for the first time to get familiar with the material and make sure it is ok.

I have a backup on tape since the footage I will edit is only a copy.

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Why would I prefer P2 workflow over tape workflow? It certainly takes a lot of extra time and makes me have to think about more things. I have to think more while shooting and do card changing/transfers. I have to think about how I will backup and where (with the added cost in time and materials for the actual backup). And I still have to watch the footage. With tape I would reach the same results while simply watching/transfering the footage.
 
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Limo991, if your unsure about the P2 solution why not just rent some cards for a couple days and see how it works out for you. Personally I love using the P2 cards. If I can avoid it I will never go back to tape. Its not as thou tape is a 100% reliable. I've had dropouts and stuff like that. As long as you have all the right drivers and follow the guidelines for dealing with P2 media then you should be fine. Just give it a try, then make your decision.
 
In PAL land we are considering the camera but have no way to see or rent one at this time. Same applies to P2 cards. We are hoping our NTSC friends will give us some feedback on what's good or bad after the first weeks of use when ordering becomes available. The only thing really different in this camera compared to other solutions is P2 workflow. It changes the way we will work. I have seen some articles on the subject but most sound like they are just helping the P2 format get a market share. They are so enthusiastic and expressive in how superior it is that it does not sound right at all! Real world users are much more reliable sources for these things.
 
Well I'm a real world user and I'm telling you that P2 is on a whole other level. I hate tape more than anything. Its such a pain in the ass. The first time I went and and shot with the HVX and watched what I just shot and choose to delete that it I knew that this was the greatest idea out there. Its like using a digital still camera. You can see what you just shot and if its worth dealing with. Plus I would trust the P2 cards over a hard drive any day. You could drop a P2 card and be kind of freaked out because of how much they cost. But if you dropped a drive you would be freakin out because you might have just lost every thing you just shot. I know earlier on last year someone else said something very similar to this. It does change the whole work flow. But sometimes change is a good thing. In this case it is.
 
4gb cards store about 5minutes of 1080p if they are 4000gb and the format is 100mbits/sec.
4gig card hold 4 minutes, if you are recording in 720pn you have 10 minutes.

 A P2 store, the official Panasonic solution is advertised to have a speed of 4minutes for a 4gb P2 card with verify off. I guess that would be double the time for verify on.
You are correct

 I have to transfer the cards to P2 store while I'm shooting. I have to get someone to do that or stop shooting to initiate the procedure and switch cards while I'm shooting.
It all depend of what you are shooting. Recording over 8minutes of contious footage, or 20minutes if with 720pn. Or if using 8gig P2 card, 16minutes, or 40 minutes in 720.

 I can't monitor the footage for errors while I'm transfering so I have to do it later. But I can use verify and have slower transfers.
I dont know how you work on tape, but it the same thing, except those advantages : You can ofcourse do live playback, no rewind. Play it onto another camera/desk on a monitor, OR load the content into the PC directly, no need to transfer, live playback. Also note that P2 media are robust, they do not failed. So you dont have to be worry about drop out or anything.

The transfer speed to Laptop varies from 4 to 3 minutes for 4gb card which is 5 minutes of footage without verify.
Actually 3-4 minutes for 4 minutes. Unless you do 720pn, so it 3-4 minutes for 10 minutes.

 I have to disrupt my work to change cards every few minutes and always make sure there is a second card inside in case the first gets full.
It all depend on how you are setup, but you shouldn't have to disrupt your work to change the card, do it live.

 If the producer wants the material I have to either take extra time to transfer the material to another hard disk at close to real time (2.5inch disks) or give him an expensive P2 store or laptop.
It always depend at what step he want the material. I wouldn't use P2 store on a set, but a computer to transfer to a raid array for direct access to the producers, on site. Laptop with GigE link with that server have more than ennuf speeds.

 Later, I have to watch the footage for the first time in real time since this is something I need anyway. This is real time for me. Some might disagree.
You could have watched it live, without rewind, you can delete footage in realtime, no need to rewind either. You put P2 card into a deck or other camera or PC and playback realtime. Once on the raid, playback realtime to anyone on that array. I mean you can't go faster than this (SDI-HD-> computer ?? That would take very bigger IT infrastructure anyway to acheive this)

 I have no backup of the footage I'm watching. I need to make a backup of what's on P2 or transfer the P2 drive to a computer before editing in order to work on a backup. Some might disagree on this, but bad things happen. The backup procedure takes time. I imagine it takes the same with a P2 transfer since it uses a 2.5inch disk. Close to real time.
Well you can do live backup when you copy to the network raid array, software read and write to 2 location. You can copy to a Firewire drive to the laptop and to the raid array. So your backup is even more secure than a tape at this point, and the data is already available.

Time required: If everything works perfectly and I don't run out of space, I will have to watch the material in real time later. If I need a backup I also take the time to do one. This is close to real time again.
You already had your backup, but you could ofcourse backup to a SDLT drive or burn the P2 4gig card onto DVD disks.

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The data on tape.
You hate to pray that the data was written correctly to the tape, and the tape is not defective.

 I shoot whatever I want without thinking about tape for one hour of footage. If tape ends I put another tape in and drop the old one to my pocked.
Alot of chances there to damage your ONLY COPY.

If the producer needs the tapes I simply give them to him.
Still here, no copy ... no backup. Oups a big Subwoofer... bye bye tape ;)

Later I transfer the tape to PC while watching it for the first time to get familiar with the material and make sure it is ok.
You mean, HOPE everything is ok. You are right, still no backup at this point.

I have a backup on tape since the footage I will edit is only a copy.
Well at this point let hope the tape reading came out OK... Then you have your PC copy, I wouldn't still consider your tape your only backup a viable solution. DVCPRO HD tapes are betters... but DV tape are prone to failure.

----- Moc final comment :
It all depend of the type of people working on a project. So when I film something, anyone on the set/network can view the footage just a few minutes after been recorded on video, already backup, and available to multiple editing stations.

Now you could acheive near as good result with tape, but tape are not a medium I would trust on. Also is always depend on what you need to shoot. This forum is mostly for filmmakers. So the usages if film a few minutes scene and it done, Bad scene, just delete form the card, and continue recording, no need to keep it, unless you wish to keep everything, but it make editing ALOT easier. Everything is seperated into CLIPS, and only the clip you actually need.

We might see some nice P2 interface in the future. I would expect a GigE P2 card, that just mount your Raid array directly into the camera, so camera write directly to that.

In theorie it could be more easy than we think... The camera run Linux, the P2 slot = PCMCIA slot, so a 1GigE Ethernet with the linux drivers in the camera, and the camera use NFS to mount the remote network drive into the Camera directy. In theory this solution is FREAKING CHEAP and simple :
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1127809&CatId=588
40$ PCMCIA GigE card, and just a small software change in the firmware...

So this could be the ultimate solution, record and LIVE available into your raid redundant array with no transfer needed.

But until then, P2 memory card is a very good solution.

Small note, DVCPRO HD tape deck cost about 20k$ !!! So we are not talking about the same thing here. And HDV is not as good as DVCPRO HD in general.
 
I believe you are refering to a studio suituation since you mention raid, computers etc.

I trust tape a lot more than I trust DVDs. I have never lost a tape. I know people that shoot 20 tapes a month for years and never lost content. Most DVDs are not safe for more than 1-2 years even at normal writing speeds and they are not something you should consider for archival. You can measure the deterioration even after only a few months. Some fail unpredictably and without particular reason. If I use 4gb cards, I still need to burn a DVD for 4 minutes of footage. But that takes 8 to 14 minutes for 4 minutes of footage if you want to do a good quality burn (8x is not that safe, but anyway). That's a lot of time. 2 to 3.5 hours to backup an hour of footage without verify?! A full day of work to backup 1 hour of footage with verify? Changing cds all the time and labeling and all that is not my idea of fun. A HDD is easy, fast and much safer.

If you don't trust hard disks, how do you trust the DVCPROHD footage when it is only in a laptop or p2 store? It's on a hard disk. The P2 media stores content only for a while and gets rewritten. It is temporary medium.

I also do not trust tape backup. They are extremely high density and tricky in their nature. A friend runs a datacenter and they used to do tape backups only to discover that 1 in 4 tapes wouldn't work after only a month. I have heard increddible things on how bad tapes are. A tape drive is an extra cost also.

When I mention that I have too see the contect, I'm refering to getting familiar with it. That's something I can't do immediately after shooting something and certainly not something I would do in the camera. I have to see all of it and think about how it should be treated. This is not really a verification process. It is something I need to do anyway before doing anything to the material.

"This forum is mostly for filmmakers."

That's something that can take lots of discussion:) I know about 20 people that post to this site. None is a filmmaker. They are professional videoographers (wedding shooters), people thinking about shooting a film (most will not), kids, hobbyists, even programmers and video software developers like me or people that do not use a camera at all.
 
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I was talking about DVCPRO HD TAPE!! Those exist, but are very expensive and require a 20k$ deck. Also, the 40$ DVD burner are not good. Plextor offer highquality burner, and with a good media, the data will last for alot of years. Also you can burn at 16x no problem with a good drive. Go see Plextor Drives

I have also mention SDLT tape solution for backup. I have said incredible thing about ANY TAPE... and they suck, but people like tape, so as long they got 2 copy on HD, 1 raid, 1 portable/storage, a extra Tape backup is not a problems., just 1 more chance to get your data back.

You seemed to didnt understand the P2 workflow at the begining, and it why I reply, but now it just make me feel is you are trying to prove to yourself you do not need it. Im sorry but I can't do that. You can go and buy a 20k$ tape deck DVCPRO HD, and connect it to the camera, but I would ratter pay 5k$ into a portable Rackmount Data server.
 
In order to change my way of working I would have to see an advantage to the new technology. Isn't this logical? All I heard so far are propositions about superiority of P2 workflow. How is it superior if it takes more time, requires extra hardware, requires more user intervention, adds an extra cost for a temporary storage medium (P2) and makes me create an extra backup?

A direct portable hard disk recorder would make more sense. I have used those and they are generally a little better than tape. Panasonic and others are preparing similar solutions for the HVX so I'm probably not the only one that thinks so.

The two 8gb cards will probably be more than 3500 euro with 19% tax in europe. You can get a camera for that kind of money. I'm just asking what is it than makes P2 so superior or something someone should consider. A product should solve a problem or save time or provide security better than other solutions. How does it do that? That is the question.
 
Here is another wrinkle: The P2 solution and impending arrival of the FS100 both write the DVCPro HD codec at 100 MBits and 6.7:1 compression. Do you think -for those of us who own HDCam VTR's- the imagery could be improved by going to a VTR -which uses 3.3:1 compression? Obviously there would have to be some sort of component HD/firewire-HD-SDI converter in the pipeline, but conceivably wouldn't that improve the picture? Or am I wrong? There has been a lot of chatter about what is coming out of the camera via component HD versus what is recorded in the 1080 and 720 modes...thoughts?

If a client can afford shooting on the F900 or Varicam then they are still the better option, but if we are renting the camera package to a client with a specific budget, and the client wants a little more out of it, I would think this could possibly be a decent solution.

I had hoped the XD HD F70 VTR would have recorded higher than 35Mbits but apparently they don't want to do that...

The point is P2 and the workflow are undoubtably great (I am supposed to get my HVX next week), but is what I have described potentially a good solution?

jt
 
Finally got to try the camera this week. For our purposes the workflow is great. It has been said before and I can confirm: for many, at least for right now, the workflow is not for you.

Using 720 24p instead of 1080 60p results in long enough record times and less then realtime transfer time, even with verify.

We didn't have a raid configuration set up with our laptop but will have that when we recieve our camera. Backup to HDD done at the same time as transfer; done.

The pre-record buffer is great if you are shooting ENG. With tape we would come back from a shoot with hours and hours of footage. Most of this footage was the camera rolling while "waiting" for things to happen. We had to wade thru all this footage of nothing looking for "the moment". Can honestly say, with the pre-record buffer, hours and hours of post time is gonna be saved every month.

This could be useful for event videographers but the short record times of P2 right now probably make the P2 option not for you. Especially if you feel you need to use 1080p. If you are willing to record at 720p when the 16gb cards come out then P2 could bare a second look.

I think Drew has the best idea, rent a HVX setup and see if you can make it work for you. If not, stick with tape for now.

Good luck
 
Thanks. For the RAID you mean streaming to a laptop with external firewire RAID1?

A 16gb GB would be about 30 minutes for 720/25p in the N mode?
 
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