ConspiracyPenguin
Nosey Penguin
Hehehe. I didn't realize my post was so long when I wrote it, but I still stand by what I said.
Over-reacting?
- Thread starter Mattykins
- Start date
Hehehe. I didn't realize my post was so long when I wrote it, but I still stand by what I said.
grinner
Carbonite Member
People will always over-react when it comes to politics as reacting to something we have no control over is an over-reaction.
We could say this or that or vote this way or that way. In the end, top-bidder of office will do what they want. We just vote to make our 40% to pimpin Sam feel better.
We could say this or that or vote this way or that way. In the end, top-bidder of office will do what they want. We just vote to make our 40% to pimpin Sam feel better.
Luis Caffesse
Admin
Well, like any mod, and any user for that matter, I hate hearing that anyone is disappointed in the way the site is being run or the direction it's going.
We may not be perfect - but we are doing the best that we can.
Recently we tried to relax the rules a bit, and perhaps that was a mistake.
And perhaps we could have clarified our positions a bit more to the rest of you along the way. Either way, this is where we are now.
If anyone walks away from this thread with anything, I want them to realize that every single moderator on this site works very hard to keep this site as not only the best filmmaking resource online but also the best filmmaking community around. That is our chief concern. That is why we're all here - and that is what we want to continue growing, cultivating, and expanding.
Lastly - trust me when I say I realize this site is nothing without the users.
A community without members is worthless - this place is all about the people who participate in it, and it is you that gives the site it's value.
That said, if any single one of you has an issue with the way the site is being run, a specific or general thing that we as moderators did, or anything else - I would urge you to please just drop any single one of us (or ALL of us) a PM about it instead of posting it publicly.
This isn't because I want to hide from negative feedback - but because I want to be able to first think about it and respond thoughtfully, instead of feeling like I need to reply immediately before we're under attack.
If I had an issue with an individual member I would send that person a PM. It would never ocurr to me to post a thread publicly about it. I'm just asking that you guys please treat us with that same respect. We're doing our best - and if you feel like that might not be good enough at times, any one of you is more than welcome to drop me a line anytime and me know. I'm always willing to discuss things.
But like most people - I'd rather not always be forced to do it publicly.
I'm sure you can understand that.
We may not be perfect - but we are doing the best that we can.
Recently we tried to relax the rules a bit, and perhaps that was a mistake.
And perhaps we could have clarified our positions a bit more to the rest of you along the way. Either way, this is where we are now.
If anyone walks away from this thread with anything, I want them to realize that every single moderator on this site works very hard to keep this site as not only the best filmmaking resource online but also the best filmmaking community around. That is our chief concern. That is why we're all here - and that is what we want to continue growing, cultivating, and expanding.
Lastly - trust me when I say I realize this site is nothing without the users.
A community without members is worthless - this place is all about the people who participate in it, and it is you that gives the site it's value.
That said, if any single one of you has an issue with the way the site is being run, a specific or general thing that we as moderators did, or anything else - I would urge you to please just drop any single one of us (or ALL of us) a PM about it instead of posting it publicly.
This isn't because I want to hide from negative feedback - but because I want to be able to first think about it and respond thoughtfully, instead of feeling like I need to reply immediately before we're under attack.
If I had an issue with an individual member I would send that person a PM. It would never ocurr to me to post a thread publicly about it. I'm just asking that you guys please treat us with that same respect. We're doing our best - and if you feel like that might not be good enough at times, any one of you is more than welcome to drop me a line anytime and me know. I'm always willing to discuss things.
But like most people - I'd rather not always be forced to do it publicly.
I'm sure you can understand that.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Exactly.
ConspiracyPenguin
Nosey Penguin
Luis, what you said is absolutely right (and a summarized and less irrate version of my post 
) The mods try their best to keep this a friendly community and they do a helluva job.
I think it is about time this discussion is ended.
) The mods try their best to keep this a friendly community and they do a helluva job.I think it is about time this discussion is ended.
Kegan
Spam Assassin Mod
I'm on this site quite often, not posting as much these days because of the direction of the board as well. Not quite sure what should be done to fix it, but there definitely needs to be more communication within the moderator group.
On other forums, where I am a moderator, I keep all the other moderators/admins on MSN or keep in frequent contact with them through PMs. I'm just saying that what one mod thinks is a good idea or an interesting concept, another mod will take offense to it and shut the thread down.
It just appears to be that moderators here aren't acting as a TEAM, but acting individually - by doing that, it seems that threads being shut down are now personal issues as opposed to board policy.
I've had great experiences with each of the mods on this board and respect them and the job they do. I understand that you can't always get in contact with one of the others before closing a thread but I'll relate to what Mattykins referenced in his first post. Mino's thread regarding the economic article had two moderator posts in it. One was by Timur saying that it was "incredibly interesting" and then Luis coming in and saying that it was time to shut 'er down.
Shouldn't the first mod on the scene of a thread that isn't supported by board policy, close it and not encourage it?
Just some thoughts,
Kegan
On other forums, where I am a moderator, I keep all the other moderators/admins on MSN or keep in frequent contact with them through PMs. I'm just saying that what one mod thinks is a good idea or an interesting concept, another mod will take offense to it and shut the thread down.
It just appears to be that moderators here aren't acting as a TEAM, but acting individually - by doing that, it seems that threads being shut down are now personal issues as opposed to board policy.
I've had great experiences with each of the mods on this board and respect them and the job they do. I understand that you can't always get in contact with one of the others before closing a thread but I'll relate to what Mattykins referenced in his first post. Mino's thread regarding the economic article had two moderator posts in it. One was by Timur saying that it was "incredibly interesting" and then Luis coming in and saying that it was time to shut 'er down.
Shouldn't the first mod on the scene of a thread that isn't supported by board policy, close it and not encourage it?
Just some thoughts,
Kegan
HorseFilms
Look ma no hands
...and this is why politics have no place on this site. I'd rather have this site be devoted to things that bring us together and ignore the things that will cause us to separate into factions. Politics and religion are subjects that are deeply personal and you're not going to change anyone's mind about their beliefs.
All this leads to is chaos and bad feelings among members. This is something that we can't allow to happen here. There are other boards for that.
All this leads to is chaos and bad feelings among members. This is something that we can't allow to happen here. There are other boards for that.
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
I agree! Speaking of which, film will always be better than digital!!! :happy: hehe
Luis Caffesse
Admin
I can assure you there was no personal issue at stake in that case - but now I can see how it may have given that impression.
That's a good point - and I appreciate you mentioning it.
These are the kinds of things that are helpful to know.
MattinSTL
Sound Modulator
A lot of people take the written word too seriously... it's hard to read the various intentions and inflections behind text... and therefore impossible to talk about inflammatory topics without starting fires.
It's not a complicated issue at all.
No politics is best for all of us... and that includes any political messages masked as something else. Censorship may suck... but censorship that only occurs when it's your viewpoint is way worse. I'm all for truth, and equality. Period.
Any successful community needs rules, structure, and some authority to maintain order and civility... and if that authority is fair and unbiased... and you still have a problem with that community, then you can always go somewhere else.
I usually feel happy with the way things are done around here.
It's not a complicated issue at all.
No politics is best for all of us... and that includes any political messages masked as something else. Censorship may suck... but censorship that only occurs when it's your viewpoint is way worse. I'm all for truth, and equality. Period.
Any successful community needs rules, structure, and some authority to maintain order and civility... and if that authority is fair and unbiased... and you still have a problem with that community, then you can always go somewhere else.
I usually feel happy with the way things are done around here.
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
that's good point matt. the guys at the top set the tone. and with that responsibility, should be held to a higher, caffessesque standard. 
Yeah Luis is often brought up in the Mod Forum as a good example.
Brody and Larry R as well.
I know I have my moments. Good and bad.
Brody and Larry R as well.
I know I have my moments. Good and bad.
Nathyn
Low Budget Ninja
I was recently in a discussion that had to be modded. Some people say I crossed the line and got angry very quickly. The mods were generous since we were discussing a film. But after what's been going on in the debates and what went on in that thread I understand the mods around here.
JR Hudson and I spoke about this just recently. Look, we are in the new Punk-merica. The America where conversation has become offense and simple disagreements become hate. Instead of listening to another person we simply think they disagree with me so they're evil and I hate them. We judge people on silly personal crap that happened in our lives then use a person we perceive to represent our oppressor as a target to take it out on and frequently that person has nothing to do with it. Arnold and Chuck Norris are Republican, Tony Jaa, Steven Segal and Jet Li are Buddhist (I assume Jaa is Buddhist), Tom Cruise is a Scientologist, Kirk Cameron and Stephen Baldwin are Christian, Ellen is gay and overall I'm fans of all of them. How can this be:
I'm not a five year old girl. I'm a grown ass man that knows people have a right to simply be. It's not rocket science, but this is the new "I feel" America where we feel but don't think. I know teenaged girls that are tougher than what we've become. Thank God I'm black. Do you know what life would be like if I were white and doing action films with overt Christian overtones. Hell, I'd be considered an anti-semitic, Republican fascist with a movie camera in some circles without anyone knowing anything about my politics, lifestyle etc. No matter who the badguy in the film was, people would say "He's coming to get us with his DVDs and make us watch at gunpoint." :shocked:
People are scared little ants today, and think everyone is out to get them so they lash out at everyone else. And in today's internet culture where faceless cowards type on a keyboard and can say what they want without owning it and with the backlash against political correctness happening on College campuses and in the country (though I was never a fan of PC) and every taboo is breaking and everyone is fighting someone's power whom they believe to be oppressing them (including me so I can't say anything), it is indeed a dangerous time in this country. Some people are simply dumb - it's okay to say it - and take things too far. People get hurt. The mods are right on this one. Maybe one day when we grow a pair again maybe the mods can let loose but as long as we're touchy feely and everything is offensive and people have to attack others versus staying on topic, like the Metallica song, that day will never come. Let the mods moderate.
-Nate
Last edited:
LOL, not sure I can even follow this one but I think I just got an interesting portrait of you.
I think yeah, there's no other way here but the No Pol. policy.
Do want to point out again - point the finger back at us mods, though, and say as far as this little flair up over politics that it was totally our fault. We made a mistake. We made it out of the best intentions, but our bad nonetheless in thinking we might be able to have our cake and eat it too by having some of the political discussion in the Cafe that we, like you, actually want to engage in also.
As for general tone of the forum. Keep the comments coming, we're listening and cut and pasting portions of the thread back in the mod forum.
No there is no smoke room, but there is a yellow forum. Yellow ever since someone [cough]Barry Green[/cough] accidentally posted a Mod forum post in the general forum. Ever since then we painted the place yellow.
Nathyn
Low Budget Ninja
And I just edited that statement before you posted. I think the "Hitler" thing is thrown around too much. I settled on "anti-semitic, Republican fascist with a movie camera".
Sad but true.
Nope. I used to be one of those people who would get annoyed when certain post got shut down but people can't handle it.
LOL.
-Nate
Last edited:
ConspiracyPenguin
Nosey Penguin
Hehehe. When did this happen?
I think it has been decided: no politics. But, as far as who is to blame, while Jack is right that the mods turned the valve on the propane tank, I believe it was the members who pressed the igniter by misinterpreting the mod's message. There is equal blame in an equal community.
Now that that topic is done, as far as general board policy, I have been generally happy with the mod's performance. Granted, some discussions are allowed to go on much too long (or not long enough) and sometimes the manner in which things are taken care of is questionable, but, overall, they keep this place a welcoming community. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be here everyday driving you all mad!
I think if we, the membership, watch ourselves and go back to that time where we were really good at "self-moderation," the mods will be able to go back to the laid back friends we have known them as in the past. Further, if the mods are careful with those buttons, it will keep the place friendly. It takes two to tango and whether the dance is good or bad depends on BOTH parties. This is NOT a one-way street.
ugafan
Looking for a woman
i like the fact that political threads aren't allowed.
but i do wish we could have non-political threads about economics. it's enlightening and somewhat reassuring to hear from others what their take is on the current economic crisis. just my 2 cents...which after last week is probably only worth 1 cent by now.
but i do wish we could have non-political threads about economics. it's enlightening and somewhat reassuring to hear from others what their take is on the current economic crisis. just my 2 cents...which after last week is probably only worth 1 cent by now.
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
I know the incident you are referring to. respectfully, this is an acknowledgment that the discussion of users behind the scenes in the mod sub-forum is "different" when there is an expectation of privacy. i only bring this up in the interest of an open discussion. not to encourage further dissent. far from it.
so i ask, could this be the sort of thing that could help everyone understand the tone of the community as of late and its willingness to disregard the mods' authority in the cafe specifically? in my experience, greater transparency goes a long, long way toward fostering a more harmonious community. is there something here we can learn from to better the community, or am i talking out of my ass?
Jason Ramsey
Admin
I haven't been able to read through this whole thread yet and I"m sure Jack and Luis have already pretty much covered it, but there were a couple of things that I saw that I would like to respond to if I may.
Firstly, rule number one and the one rule that trumps them all to me and I have said many times is RESPECT each other. Disagreements are bound to happen, but if you can't express them RESPECTFULLY and with the appropriate tone for this board, then don't express them at all.
I have to tell you mattykins, that there is no organized or concerted effort here by the mods to let some folks have more slack and others not. Not on my watch. I will say however, that folks who have established themselves in the community, been longtime contributors, etc. will have some slack. But, it's no more than anyone could have. We don't intentionally let them break the rules and no one else. But, there is a bit of a difference between someone who has been on the boards for years and who we all know well, and someone who just joins and starts posting 20 threads a day in the cafe for example. A bit extreme, but to illustrate the point. Please understand, that everyone here deserves respect and so long as they treat others with the same, they are entitled to that.
About, mods letting bashing and personal attacks slide. I'm not sure if you are saying that we are intentionally letting this stuff slide, but to be clear, that is 100% not the case. That is my number one rule, and the number one rule of this forum as well as reduser, and scarletuser. Please do keep in mind that there are over 40,000 members and 10 mods that have almost a million and a half posts to go through, and those are just the ones you see... not counting the innapropriate ones that we did find and delete, spam posts, etc, etc, etc.
If you come across those posts, report them. Don't abuse the report post feature, but by all means report posts where things are getting personal. We can't see everything all the time.
Self-Moderation is encouraged. We don't want to be some assholes out here pissing people off. But, folks have an issue sometimes, and then they sit and brood over it and draw their own conclusions and form some idea in their head that it's personal when it very likely is not.
If you can express your concerns respectfully, these kinds of threads are welcome, and you are welcome to express them without fear of bannage (contrary to opinion of some either formed on their own or with potentially valid information).
MODS are human. I'm sorry, but I really don't have too much patience for folks who paint them out to be evil or using their powers for personal reasons. Things do happen and mistakes are made, yes... but by and large, I just wish I could make you guys understand how much the mods here (all of them) care about you guys and this community. They really do, and we have discussions all the time on what we can do to make something better, or where we might have gone wrong on something, etc. You may think we just sit in the corner and ***** about you, but we don't. The motivation is the betterment of the site, and the mods put in an awful lot of free time to help keep the gears turning and to try to keep folks happy around these parts, even if that is not apparent (or agreed with by some of you), I can promise you that it is the case. Believe it, or not.
We listen. We talk about things that are brought up. Sometimes, the mods will even go so far as to sift through the b.s. of a strongly worded, personal attack on them in private, look past that and raise the potentially valid concern that the member was trying to get across.
I care about anyone's opinion who actually cares about this site. Who actually wants to contribute to the growth and betterment of this site. I will listen to you, hell you can even call me if the time is right, and I will hear you out in full if you are respectful, and genuine.
BUT, there are also some folks who just want to complain, and want to do so in a not so respectful way. It makes me NOT care what those folks have to say. Sorry, but that's not how you raise concerns. I also don't really care what someone has to say who will run around and publicly bash folks here individually or the comunity as a whole, call us communists, etc, etc... even conspire against the community here (either in grand ways or small ways like spamming mods, etc.) and then want to express to us their concerns or suggestions and expect us to listen... I mean, do you really think I should listen to what you have to say when you have basically said to me with your actions that you don't like this place, you don't care about making it better, etc, etc.
These "you" and "your" words are general and not specific to anyone, by the way.
I posted a sticky in the cafe where you folks can go to find info on how to submit your ideas, gripes, etc.
EDIT: I think everyone could benefit from a step back and a deep breath with whatever they are doing with themselves these days. Lots of stress. Take a step back and come at each other with respect. That may not be the case in the real world, but it is the requirement here.
later,
Jason
Firstly, rule number one and the one rule that trumps them all to me and I have said many times is RESPECT each other. Disagreements are bound to happen, but if you can't express them RESPECTFULLY and with the appropriate tone for this board, then don't express them at all.
I have to tell you mattykins, that there is no organized or concerted effort here by the mods to let some folks have more slack and others not. Not on my watch. I will say however, that folks who have established themselves in the community, been longtime contributors, etc. will have some slack. But, it's no more than anyone could have. We don't intentionally let them break the rules and no one else. But, there is a bit of a difference between someone who has been on the boards for years and who we all know well, and someone who just joins and starts posting 20 threads a day in the cafe for example. A bit extreme, but to illustrate the point. Please understand, that everyone here deserves respect and so long as they treat others with the same, they are entitled to that.
About, mods letting bashing and personal attacks slide. I'm not sure if you are saying that we are intentionally letting this stuff slide, but to be clear, that is 100% not the case. That is my number one rule, and the number one rule of this forum as well as reduser, and scarletuser. Please do keep in mind that there are over 40,000 members and 10 mods that have almost a million and a half posts to go through, and those are just the ones you see... not counting the innapropriate ones that we did find and delete, spam posts, etc, etc, etc.
If you come across those posts, report them. Don't abuse the report post feature, but by all means report posts where things are getting personal. We can't see everything all the time.
Self-Moderation is encouraged. We don't want to be some assholes out here pissing people off. But, folks have an issue sometimes, and then they sit and brood over it and draw their own conclusions and form some idea in their head that it's personal when it very likely is not.
If you can express your concerns respectfully, these kinds of threads are welcome, and you are welcome to express them without fear of bannage (contrary to opinion of some either formed on their own or with potentially valid information).
MODS are human. I'm sorry, but I really don't have too much patience for folks who paint them out to be evil or using their powers for personal reasons. Things do happen and mistakes are made, yes... but by and large, I just wish I could make you guys understand how much the mods here (all of them) care about you guys and this community. They really do, and we have discussions all the time on what we can do to make something better, or where we might have gone wrong on something, etc. You may think we just sit in the corner and ***** about you, but we don't. The motivation is the betterment of the site, and the mods put in an awful lot of free time to help keep the gears turning and to try to keep folks happy around these parts, even if that is not apparent (or agreed with by some of you), I can promise you that it is the case. Believe it, or not.
We listen. We talk about things that are brought up. Sometimes, the mods will even go so far as to sift through the b.s. of a strongly worded, personal attack on them in private, look past that and raise the potentially valid concern that the member was trying to get across.
I care about anyone's opinion who actually cares about this site. Who actually wants to contribute to the growth and betterment of this site. I will listen to you, hell you can even call me if the time is right, and I will hear you out in full if you are respectful, and genuine.
BUT, there are also some folks who just want to complain, and want to do so in a not so respectful way. It makes me NOT care what those folks have to say. Sorry, but that's not how you raise concerns. I also don't really care what someone has to say who will run around and publicly bash folks here individually or the comunity as a whole, call us communists, etc, etc... even conspire against the community here (either in grand ways or small ways like spamming mods, etc.) and then want to express to us their concerns or suggestions and expect us to listen... I mean, do you really think I should listen to what you have to say when you have basically said to me with your actions that you don't like this place, you don't care about making it better, etc, etc.
These "you" and "your" words are general and not specific to anyone, by the way.
I posted a sticky in the cafe where you folks can go to find info on how to submit your ideas, gripes, etc.
EDIT: I think everyone could benefit from a step back and a deep breath with whatever they are doing with themselves these days. Lots of stress. Take a step back and come at each other with respect. That may not be the case in the real world, but it is the requirement here.
later,
Jason
Last edited: