Outer (visible) motivation/goal ?

Randall_Oelerich

Randall_Oelerich

Veteran
For classical story structure, does the protagonist have to achieve the outer motivation/goal, or could there be a twist at the end where the hero choose the opposite? And would that work, or does that cheap the audience? I know everything I have read talks about the hero obtaining the outer goal, so I am wondering if this would work.

For example, I have a story idea that I do not want to go into detail on, but the gist is that the hero wants to kill himself--sort of like Nicolas Cage's character in that movie where he wants to drink himself to death. But as the story progresses, the hero learns to love love, so at the climax he chooses life over death.
 
Well if the protagonists outer goal is committing suicide, then going the opposite way wouldn't seem cheap, it just depends on how you reached that conclusion. It's all in the execution.
 
I suppose I could define the outer motivation as the hero needing to end his emotional pain (through suicide, which is what the audience would expect give the plot line up until the climax and resolution-- but then if the hero finds solution to once again love life, the s/he has completed the outer motivation by ending his/her emotional pain. So perhaps it is just a matter of the definition of what is the hero's goal. Yeah, I think that works for the story, viz redefining the goal as ending the emotional pain.

Ezekiel667 said:
Well if the protagonists outer goal is committing suicide, then going the opposite way wouldn't seem cheap, it just depends on how you reached that conclusion. It's all in the execution.
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IMO, In a character arc structure it can work, it can work really well if the outer goal is abandoned for a moral inner goal, thereby driving the theme home.

It's been a while but wasn't the film "Wall Street" something like this? All the hero (Charile Sheen) wanted was to make money, lots of it, but he learns about this world and the mover & shakers within. In the end he turns on his mentor (Michael Douglas) to sink him & his dirty deeds.
 
The outer reward is often only a McGuffin. It's the inner reward that the movie is REALLY about. So in answer to your question, no, the outer reward does not have to be gained. However, the inner reward (for better or worse) should.
 
Thanks everybody, it all makes sense, confirms what my inner voice was telling me. Best to confirm it with all you other storytellers just to be sure! :beer:

shutterspeedfilms said:
The outer reward is often only a McGuffin. It's the inner reward that the movie is REALLY about. So in answer to your question, no, the outer reward does not have to be gained. However, the inner reward (for better or worse) should.
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I think movies are pretty predictable to modern audiences. They always expect the good guy to win, the guy to get the girl, etc. If the character is having suicidal tenancies, they will pretty well expect him to find a reason to live in the end. I say screw the audience! Let the guy find the love of his life, win millions of dollars, and get promoted to VP of his company. Then as he has a reason to live, let him get hit by a Taxi while crossing the street to get married.

By the way, I happened to catch The Ballad Of Cable Hogue last night, and that film further cements my premise.
 
Capt Quirk said:
I think movies are pretty predictable to modern audiences. They always expect the good guy to win, the guy to get the girl, etc. If the character is having suicidal tenancies, they will pretty well expect him to find a reason to live in the end. I say screw the audience! Let the guy find the love of his life, win millions of dollars, and get promoted to VP of his company. Then as he has a reason to live, let him get hit by a Taxi while crossing the street to get married.
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I like that! Make the audience think they predicted what would happen until, at the last second, you flip it around on them.

Minds will be blown. :)
 
I am not sure that would be as commercially viable as a happy ending, and this story has to be commercially viable as I am thinking of producing it myself as an indie. I think of the recent release The Strangers; I tell people about the ending in a vague way, and without giving away the spoiler ending to those that have not seen it--I really really did not like the ending, which went against the classic uplifting ending. Negative word of mouth can kill a movie--and just look at the user ratings of The Strangers on Blockbuster, just 'okay' as an average rating, although some people liked it of course. If I were putting my own prodco money on the line to make a movie I would opt for the uplifting ending, a feel good ending, so viewers recommend it to their friends.

I actually just read about endings yesterday in McKee's book Story. Three types of endings, the uplifting positive/happy ending, the pessimistic negative ending, and the ironic ending.

i think I could go for an ironic ending if it was not tragic or involved suffering. That said though, I really do appreciate the brainstorming on ideas for unexpected endings for the story.

Capt Quirk said:
I think movies are pretty predictable to modern audiences. They always expect the good guy to win, the guy to get the girl, etc. If the character is having suicidal tenancies, they will pretty well expect him to find a reason to live in the end. I say screw the audience! Let the guy find the love of his life, win millions of dollars, and get promoted to VP of his company. Then as he has a reason to live, let him get hit by a Taxi while crossing the street to get married....
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Let the guy find the love of his life, win millions of dollars, and get promoted to VP of his company. Then as he has a reason to live, let him get hit by a Taxi while crossing the street to get married.
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I think what you're trying to get at is the notion of "giving the audience what it expects but in an unexpected way." However, if you grossly overmanipulate the audience like this (in effect, pulling the rug beneath their feet), the audience will absolutely despise your movie.

Randall_Oelerich said:
I actually just read about endings yesterday in McKee's book Story. Three types of endings, the uplifting positive/happy ending, the pessimistic negative ending, and the ironic ending.

i think I could go for an ironic ending if it was not tragic or involved suffering. That said though, I really do appreciate the brainstorming on ideas for unexpected endings for the story.
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This is one of those areas in McKee's book that is just a little too tidy. I've seen many exceptions of this theory. Don't get too caught up in massaging your story to end on the same emotional note as it began.
 
A good portion of my favorite films don't have traditional "happy endings". I'm usually drawn toward this because it's more reflective of real life. Not that I don't enjoy the occasional happy ending but I have an even greater respect a writer and/or director who doesn't feel the need to randomly throw in a happy ending just so the audience leaves the theater with a smile on their faces. Not that that's what you're doing but just don't be afraid to end it on a downer, it's not always going to make the audience hate your movie. Look at Reservoir Dogs, 11:14, Mystic River, the original Saw, Easy Rider, The Departed, A Clockwork Orange, etc.
 
Killing himself is still an internal goal... just with an external result. The *struggle* is internal, not external.

Don't think goal - that's a trap - think conflict.

- Bill
 
shutterspeedfilms said:
I think what you're trying to get at is the notion of "giving the audience what it expects but in an unexpected way." However, if you grossly overmanipulate the audience like this (in effect, pulling the rug beneath their feet), the audience will absolutely despise your movie.
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No, what I am saying is, the ironies in life are what you should expect, not fairy tale endings. That is why Empire is the best of the Star Wars trilogy. Luke gets his hand cut off, Han gets frozen in Carbonite, the Empires gives Leia to Jabba. It's like life, a serious of down notes.


Wait, I was channeling Clerks for a minute... but you get my point.
 
Plus, I believe you said you were intending to shoot it as an indie. Most popular indie films are ones that stray from the typical "Hollywood formula" including fairytale endings. Just a thought.
 
That might be true, but most indies also do not make much money. I believe it is possible to make an independent film and also make it a hw formula happy ending and make a bucket of cash while doing so. =)

TimCollins said:
Plus, I believe you said you were intending to shoot it as an indie. Most popular indie films are ones that stray from the typical "Hollywood formula" including fairytale endings. Just a thought.
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Randall_Oelerich said:
That might be true, but most indies also do not make much money. I believe it is possible to make an independent film and also make it a hw formula happy ending and make a bucket of cash while doing so. =)
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That's true, a happy ending would probably be more profitable for the masses.
 
No, what I am saying is, the ironies in life are what you should expect, not fairy tale endings. That is why Empire is the best of the Star Wars trilogy. Luke gets his hand cut off, Han gets frozen in Carbonite, the Empires gives Leia to Jabba. It's like life, a serious of down notes.
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What happens in the climax of Empire is still a natural extension of a masterful, cohesive plot that respects the audience. Luke losing his hand is a shock, but can be seen as realistically happening within the world of the story.

Your example appears born more out of the desire to manipulate the audience for shock value. While it may be more "true to life", that doesn't mean it's true to the world of your story. And that's the difference. Your script has to earn that moment through proper setup. Unless you're writing Final Destination 8, I'm telling you, the audience/reader will spread enough venomous contempt for your movie/script as to render it DOA.
 
The STAR WARS prequels are all indies.

And the end of EMPIRE is a "to be continued" - a cliffhanger, not an ending.

You want an ending that is logical upon reflection, but unexpected when it happens... and satisfying to the audience.

Protag solves problem... or problem solves protag (tragedy).

- Bill
 
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