Outdoor Lights to Buy
- Thread starter Inchiology
- Start date
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
If you are looking to get more punch than a reflector, there are a few newer units such as those made by Hive Lighting that will start to make a dent but only if you are working up close. If you need wider spread, softer light or greater output you'd need to go large HMI (over 4K) and those are cost-prohibitive for most individuals to purchase and operate (plus generator, cable etc). In overcast conditions, smaller units will start to become more viable. I was just able to work a visible backlight with two Astra 1x1's flying about 5 feet behind the subject, and also an 800w Joker into a Chimera with similar output. Not ideal though.
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
An 18k Arrimax is what you want
Well yeah it is, or an M90. I try not to go there because, ya know. (on the abovementioned job we also had two M40's and an M90...shhhhhhhh)
puredrifting
Major Contributor
When you work with the big toys like Charles, the lights aren't the huge expense, it's the blimped, custom painted generator, or gennie truck with the operator that costs you a lot.
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
Mm...not really though. I don't have to run the numbers myself but I'm pretty sure a plant (gennie) that can run several big heads is itself less expensive than one of the heads...and the gennie op is usually double-duty as a driver. But dealing with that kind of firepower does require a certain amount of manpower to handle the cabling and hardware, you don't start messing around with it on a small crew.
rob norton
Veteran
OK off topic and probably a stupid question but why is the 18k as powerful as it gets for lights? Why not the Arrimax 36k/72k etc.? Is it a technological limitation or would it or even be helpful?
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
Good question Rob, not sure if we will ever see a larger HMI. When we need more firepower we gang up multiple units (a la this sort of thing).
puredrifting
Major Contributor
I produce too and once you go over instruments you can plug into the wall, it's a whole other level of production and expense because it increases everything exponentially. Not only the manpower to run the gennie but then you have to increase payroll costs, feed them, more insurance, etc. That's why I am so excited for the new gear that can give you HMI like output while plugging into an 18-20 amp circuit.
Run&Gun
Veteran
Could be a "law of diminishing returns" type thing where the output from a larger, more powerful head just isn't worth it to design, engineer, build and power vs. using multiple "smaller" instruments.
To the OP - not sure what your budget is - but the big HMI's & most lights with the firepower to compete with sun are not cheap to purchase. I would consider renting a grip package that includes hmi / plasma lights - along with diffusion for dialing back the sun. And then scout and plan your shots very selectively based on location and what you have at your disposal.
Bern Caughey
Veteran
Charles,
Think there are enough of us on these boards who either work with G&E crews, or are at least interested to know, that you shouldn't hesitate to post Big Boy solutions. I know the hassles you've been subjected to by certain forum members, but most of us are here to learn so please don't be dissuaded from sharing your experiences.
As I'm sure Charles is aware, there are larger units, but they don't get used anywhere near as often as the workhorses. My preferred Gaffer has two 24K HMI Fresnels, but his ballasts are only 18K. As such we've never tested his 18K Arrimax against a 24K Fresnel, but imagine the Arrimax is at least as bright.
On one occasion I hired three "50K Linear" Soft Suns from Lighting Strikes, now Luminys Systems, for a Vogue cover shoot. The subject was a well known Pop Star dancing in a Great Room with a dozen young ballerinas, & the light was to be soft-ish, & enveloping, but we needed an exposure of at least 1/250th at f/8 for film rated at ISO 200. This exposure is just two stops below direct Sunlight, so our accent lights, & even the eye-light, needed to be 18K HMIs just to register.
We could have used strobes, & saved at least $15K, but the photographer didn't like frozen motion, & preferred a bit of motion blur. The images were beautiful, & seemed everyone loved them, except Anna Wintour, so AKAIK they've never been seen by the public.
Using the Soft Suns was an experiment, & I would have preferred the 100K versions, but they were unstable at the point, & I had seen a number of their globes explode during testing (our Studio was near their offices). The 50K is a bit of a beast to rig, & power, so nowadays I'd likely just gang up a bunch of 18K Arrimax(s).
http://www.luminyscorp.com/index.php/products/softsun/
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CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
Indeed, and I like the idea of them also--you can put your resources to better use elsewhere. However, the highest output LED or plasma units I've seen so far are not powerful enough to replace HMI's that can do true battle against sunlight (yet to see any single unit that can approach an M40 for instance, which is the smallest unit I'll consider using for exterior work). And they cost more, because they are newer tech and most rental houses don't carry them yet. So they are not yet cost effective.
Just to re-iterate and elaborate: if you are shooting exterior and looking to fill a single face for an interview where the head can be a few feet away, you can do OK with a reasonable enough LED or phosophor unit. But if you need to balance or overcome the sun for multiple people where the heads need to be 20 feet away to give you room to do moving shots etc., large HMI is still the way, unless you start ganging up the hottest of the new tech units which will end up costing more when all is said and done.
rob norton
Veteran
JPNola
Veteran
Back to advice for the OP, my hunch is that what he is looking for is something along the lines of a 1200 HMI. Possibly one of the Chinese knockoffs available on eBay for $2200.00.
I believe the brand used widely in China goes by the name of "As ARRI".
My friend has a Scion which he tries to convince women is "As PORSCHE".
I believe the brand used widely in China goes by the name of "As ARRI".
My friend has a Scion which he tries to convince women is "As PORSCHE".
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
Well, that's the thing...I hate to see someone investing into a light that is underpowered for the situation. A 1200 par on a sunny day is basically useless unless it's in close proximity or blasting raw, which is a pretty specific look (more likely to work in a music video environment than anywhere else, so maybe OK). That said, it's not a bad light to own for other scenarios as well, such as pushing through a window for an interior day scene etc., so it's not necessarily a poor investment overall.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
I totally agree Charles. I worked on NYPD Blue and if you recall that show, the "look" especially for the station was almost completly lit by 18ks outside the set windows, a very edgy, contrasty look that I thought was genius. I also agree with your take on the 1200 watt PAR. I owned a Joker 1200 HMI PAR back when they made that model and it was a cool, very handy light to have around, I used to shoot a lot of corporate stuff in Kinkos branches that always seemed to have a glass front in the entire store and the 1200 watt Joker with my medium Chimera and an egg crate was super handy to work with that. But outdoors, the big HMI stuff is definitely still needed. The newer technology stuff will get there but of course, that's not what the lighting houses are putting out there today as the cost ratio and power ratios aren't there yet. How long do you think it will take, perhaps another two or three years before we see an LED or Plasma source that can stand in for an M40 at a comparable cost?
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
Two or three years sounds about right, but I'm far from expert on the design challenges involved--I have a hard enough time keeping up with current fixtures let alone next-gen! (Cinegear is a whirlwind these days...).
It is typically ironic that HMI fixtures have reached a level of maturity where the output has been maximized (the reflectors on the M series are genius, so incredibly efficient), they are so improved in terms of hot strike and overall far more reliable than before...and they may be on the way out. Same thing happened with film cameras, we reached a zenith with the Arricams/416/235 and Panavision's XL2 and then large-sensor digital came around. I think the tough part for owner-operators looking to get into buying high-power LED/Plasma/who knows what is that you'll get a couple good years out of them before obsolescence, which makes for a tough investment unless you can pay them off quickly.