"out-of-the-box" picture profile - What are you using?

J

Jean-Philippe

Well-known member
About 50% of my work involve shooting for others when at the end of the day, I give the producer / client the footage and I have no control on what it's done in post. Most of the time, there is no grading at all done on the footage. So in these situation, I try to use a basic picture profile that will look good most of the time out of the box.


For now, What I do is using the stock PP5, whth the knee point set to 90% and the slope to -2. This way I get a great looking image, with a good balance of contrast and dynamic range.


But I'm interested to know what others do in the same situation. Do you have some tricks to share?
 
For the moment I still use (thrust) PP off.
Others use 'self-made' PP. Many of them are on this forum.
There is also the G-log PP.
Perhaps the best solution for the moment is use what you are happy with, but customize to much and nothing can be done in post.
 
Agreed with using no profile. This camera has plenty of latitude and a super clean image that allows you to dig into the blacks in post.

If you go with a log profile, be extremely conservative. They're interesting in theory but risky for 8-bit cameras (added noise and color banding under heavy color correction).
 
I wouldn't recommend shooting with no picture profile. Never ever. Highlights are quite ugly, especially when saturated. At least switch color mode to something like CinemaTone2 to avoid clipped saturation.

As an allround profile, I developed this settings with no fancy name but a nice overall look :-)

[TABLE="class: profile, width: 518"]
[TR]
[TD]Black-Level[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]+4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gamma[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]CinemaTone1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Black Gamma[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Range[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Middle[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Level[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]+7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Knee[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mode[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Manual[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Auto Set[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Max Point[/TD]
[TD]100%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Sensitivity[/TD]
[TD]Middle[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Manual Set[/TD]
[TD]Point[/TD]
[TD]90%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Slope[/TD]
[TD]+2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Color Mode[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Type[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]CinemaTone2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Level[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]+8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Color Level[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]-3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Color Phase[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]-1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Color Depth[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]R[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]-5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]-5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]B[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]-5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]M[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]-2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Y[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]+3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]WB Shift[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Filter Type[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]R-B[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]LB[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]CC[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]R[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]-1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]B[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]-2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Detail[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Manual On/Off[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]On[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Level[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]-4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]V/H Balance[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]+1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]B/W Balance[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Type3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Limit[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]+7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Crispening[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Hi-Light Detail[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Yes, based on my experience, no PP is not an option. Highlights are out of control. And for those of you telling me ta you can correct in post, or use GLog, I think you didn't read my post... I'm asking for those situation when I have no control in the post process, and most of the time I know there will be no Color Correcting at all done on the footage. So I want to hand the best looking image out of the box to the producer / client.

I am happy with what I'm doing right now (like I said in the original post) , but out of curiosity, I would like to know what others do in the same situation.

Thanks a lot Jay, I will definitly give a try to you profile.
 
I have pretty much concluded that the FS100 cannot be a grade free camera

I told my client today to expect the images a little dark and to boost the mids a little

I offered ProRes version (with this done)

I need to get some standard looks to apply in post to make that quick and easy

IMO

S
 
I think like you Sam, but I'm often in situations where even if I tell the client to do something on the footage, for many reasons (lack of time, money or knowledge mostly) nothing will be done on it. So I need to hand the best possible footage to the client.
 
I think in that case you need to convert to pro-res and add a standard look export and send that to them if at all possible

Otherwise it is difficult with those highlights

Im tending around simple profiles with a bit of sat dialled out knee around 100 and the upper blacks boosted a little Rec709 - IMO Cinetone 2 crushes too much for an off the bat profile..


Edit:

Of course the more reflectors/lights you use the more you can control the DR of the image and fit it to the DR of the camera..

S
 
Last edited:
Thanks for your comments sam, I will look into that.

Regarding my situation, transcoding before handing the files is not an option. First I would have to charges for that, and it will cause some delay. I often offload the cards on an hand drive right after the shoot, on location, for the client / producer.
 
Jean-Philippe said:
Yes, based on my experience, no PP is not an option. Highlights are out of control. And for those of you telling me ta you can correct in post, or use GLog, I think you didn't read my post... I'm asking for those situation when I have no control in the post process, and most of the time I know there will be no Color Correcting at all done on the footage. So I want to hand the best looking image out of the box to the producer / client.I am happy with what I'm doing right now (like I said in the original post) , but out of curiosity, I would like to know what others do in the same situation.Thanks a lot Jay, I will definitly give a try to you profile.
Click to expand...
Seems to me the answer to this needs to come from your client and is highly dependent on content and taste -- all of which should probably be discussed in ore production.
 
Jean-Philippe said:
Thanks for your comments sam, I will look into that.

Regarding my situation, transcoding before handing the files is not an option. First I would have to charges for that, and it will cause some delay. I often offload the cards on an hand drive right after the shoot, on location, for the client / producer.
Click to expand...

I think I understand your situation.

I shoot a lot of stills in hotels - often windows with a view plus an interior

I can do this the 'old way' which involves loads of lights and delivers an image straight from the camera or the 'new way' which involves HDR and post

The 'new way' is much cheaper because the crew is smaller and setup times faster BUT it takes a lot of client education

I think it is the same for this camera (and would be for an F3 shooting log, or whatever)

If your client demands an image off the camera you can deliver it by using 'cinematography skills' - fill lighting, graduated ND etc

Of course I am a massive fan of shots done in the shade

'We can do this interview in the shade - or I am going to need a crew to set up a light and some overhead scrim - it will take 20 minutes'

Communication with clients is super hard, especially those used to (for example) cameras that have everything in focus etc

In general I think a very good set of ND, a silver reflector board and watching your highlights are worth their weight in gold

Best

SMM
 
I've been experimenting and getting a better idea of how the FS is handling highlights.

The key is really to avoid highlight clipping in ANY of the channels, on skin if red clips first (which it usually would under tungsten lighting) then the GB will produce yellow halos before it hits pure white. Outdoors, the blue can clip quite easily. This is true of any video camera but more so it seems with the FS because of the limited control over matrixes it has.

One problem is that it's difficult, well actually pretty impossible to see, individual channels clipping on the LCD. That would be my biggest firmware request, RGB histograms or some kind of zebra control over this. Perhaps an external monitor with more features.

Adjusting colour saturation down overall is a good first step, this obviously assumes you can push it back up for the mid tones in a grade which isn't always possible.

I think the way the F3 handles this is much better and perhaps one of the bigger differentiating factors between the cameras. The more professional matrices allow for desaturation of highlights.

Of course once you're clipped you *may* be able to recover detail in some cases by using luma information from the non clipped channels. I was considering writing a FCP X plug in to do this but found some existing software which claims to do it (i haven't tried it yet, one called tonalizerVFX for example).

When i get some more spare time (yeah right) i intend comparing indoor skin tones under 3200K and 5600K lighting. I would expect the 5600K lighting to produce much better skin tones which can be graded back to tungsten warmth afterwards. The 5600K light will help ensure the red channel does not clip first.

hope this helps
cheers
Paul
 
Thanks Paul for your writeup!

What do you think about color mode CinemaTone2? What I see is that all the highlights roll out smoothly to white. Do you also think this is the way to go or are there any major drawbacks?

thx!
 
jay_switzerland said:
Thanks Paul for your writeup!

What do you think about color mode CinemaTone2? What I see is that all the highlights roll out smoothly to white. Do you also think this is the way to go or are there any major drawbacks?

thx!
Click to expand...

I believe that seems to behave better but i need more time in different situations. I think Frank, in one of the other PP threads, is on the nail when he has a couple of broad PP and then for each scene adjusts the black to get the biggest range. Certainly CinemaTone2 looks good so far. Also it's important to white balance for different situations.

To get the best from the camera is going to require some work both in shooting and in grading which is very dependent on what you're shooting. I think the best mantra is to look for channel clipping and make sure your blacks are set right and get your skin tones on zebra. Protect them at all costs.

I've been going through one of the sherlock tv series recently broadcast in the UK. It has a lovely look to it (is it Red, or Alexa?) but what's interesting is the luma distribution. It has crushed shadows and a very stretched mid tone and the highlights are massively pulled down (roll off very slowly), very rarely is there anything in the scene that is at maximum brightness, even outdoors. Skin tones seem around 50%. So in an 8 bit image there's a lot of highlight wastage yet the results look great. So whoever is grading or shooting is really protecting those highlights.

cheers
paul
 
morgan_moore said:
Surely high bit capture 8bit delivery?
Click to expand...

Yes it would have been. However the distribution spread of the tonality was interesting to me and if you're looking for that look then you can adjust the capture (especially in 8 bit) to suit by expanding the mid tones and crushing the highlights up beyond a certain point. Normally even in a dark scene i would expect to see some bright points to create contrast yet in this case it was very subtle. I liked the skin tones and the way they were lit, so ripping apart the curves helps me understand a bit more.

cheers
paul
 
paulcurtis said:
Yes it would have been. However the distribution spread of the tonality was interesting to me and if you're looking for that look then you can adjust the capture (especially in 8 bit) to suit by expanding the mid tones and crushing the highlights up beyond a certain point. Normally even in a dark scene i would expect to see some bright points to create contrast yet in this case it was very subtle. I liked the skin tones and the way they were lit, so ripping apart the curves helps me understand a bit more.

cheers
paul
Click to expand...

Aha you are looking at sherlock on a WFM or something and bring to match your (FS100) scene to the distribution .. nice

I still think reflectors and lights play a big part!

S
 
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