Oscar nominee 'Beasts' - 85 of 120 VFX shots created with free labor

Batutta said:
I don't have a problem with interns on general principle. It's the number of people and the type of free work that 'Beasts of the Southern Wild' used I take issue with. They weren't assisting other paid artists by getting coffee. They created finished shots. To me it's like asking someone "Hey, go shoot some scenes for me for free so I can put them in my movie, which hopefully will be a hit and make me tons of money, but you won't get a dime." It's exploitative. That the people being exploited are happy to be exploited doesn't make it any less so. I'm sure people in sweat shops are just happy to have a job. This isn't a black and white issue. There is a gray area that I think Beasts of the Southern Wild crossed over into.
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Yes! I agree with this! I have been sticking with this thread and reading carefully and keeping still. This is the reason it really bugs me. I don't think the whole intern thing is fair, that's true but I get it. I think that what was described, students working months on a project, that experience notwithstanding, creates a TREMENDOUS value to the producers that they are unfairly getting for free. Take your darn $1.5 million in grants and pay those students or pay pros or do it yourself! Independent my AS$. It is priviledged and weird. Thank you Batutta.
 
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nothing said:
This is turning into another thread about "Why bitter old Gary isn't/shouldn't be in the movie business" - personally I think we've had enough of those kind of threads.
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Funny you still just feel the need to personally attack me rather than respond to any of my points. Perhaps if you actually made an attempt to contribute, rather than express the fact that you personally dislike me, this might be a more interesting thread?
 
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hscully said:
I think that what was described, students working months on a project, that experience notwithstanding, creates a TREMENDOUS value to the producers that they are unfairly getting for free.
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Exactly my feelings as well. Doesn't the legal definition of "internship" also preclude bringing an actual benefit to the company from the work?
 
Gary Huff said:
Exactly my feelings as well. Doesn't the legal definition of "internship" also preclude bringing an actual benefit to the company from the work?
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that's a fair question... does it? The presumption is that the benefit should be to the intern with experience that they can use in a given industry that they couldn't get otherwise (the Catch 22). They worked for months. Were they mentored during that time? Obviously the producers benefited greatly. It seems that the "company" that uses interns should be in a position to say, "This is going to happen with or without you, you're welcome to tag along and get some hands on experience but we aren't going to pay you and pay you." That would seem fair to me
 
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Doc Bernard said:
I disagree, Gillvane. Why, you ask? On paper, there is no major film that has shown a profit. Despite what the BO says.

Nothing.....I agree completely.
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I never mentioned anything about profits. Many people get paid on the backend and do get paychects, but none of them have "net profits" mentioned in their contracts.
I'm well aware Hollywood writes everything off so there are no net profits.

It's very easy to pay people out of gross profits. You get X percentage of Gross profits in excess of C dollars (so producer doesn't have to pay you out of his own pocket), but total pay is not to exceed A dollars (if you want to cap it).
 
hscully said:
that's a fair question... does it?
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re: 'does 'intership' preclude bringing actual benefit to the company from the work'.

No. An intern would gain no 'benefit' by working as a coffee boy or girl, or trash hauling, unless of course they were training in the catering or garbage disposal business.

Nor would an intern benefit from 'make work' projects where there is no essential value to the company... and would most likely drain on 'management' activities to maintain said 'make work' programs.
 
Gillvane said:
I never mentioned anything about profits. Many people get paid on the backend and do get paychects, but none of them have "net profits" mentioned in their contracts.
I'm well aware Hollywood writes everything off so there are no net profits.

It's very easy to pay people out of gross profits. You get X percentage of Gross profits in excess of C dollars (so producer doesn't have to pay you out of his own pocket), but total pay is not to exceed A dollars (if you want to cap it).
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For most employees there is never any 'backend, percentage points, etc.'. One gets a salary offering, and that's about it... perhaps a few stock options, perhaps a few bonuses throughout the years of employment, but that's it.

Only the top 'few' either founders or VP/P/CEO/CFO get any 'benefit' from 'beyond our wildest dreams' result of the efforts of the employees of a company. In fact, if the bad management of these people leads to the demise of the company altogether... often the top management can flee to other companies, provided the law is not chasing them..., perhaps even relocate, which often is not an option for the employees lower down on the totem pole.

It seems that only in Hollywood does the 'shop boy or girl' dream of percentage points on the product... everyone else of the lower employee class in 'industry' takes their paycheck as it is... and hope it doesn't bounce...
 
Actually they don't deserve to benefit from the situation. Check out #4. There are six federal legal criteria for whether an intern should be paid or not. I think that "Beasts.." is in violation of 3 and 4, below.

NYTimes "The Unpaid Intern, Legal or Not." Andrew Greenhouse, 4/2010: “If you’re a for-profit employer or you want to pursue an internship with a for-profit employer, there aren’t going to be many circumstances where you can have an internship and not be paid and still be in compliance with the law,” said Nancy J. Leppink, the acting director of the department’s wage and hour division."

The U.S. Department of Labor’s Wage and Hour Division (WHD) has developed the six factors below to evaluate whether a worker is a trainee or an employee for purposes of the FLSA (Federal Labor Standards Act):

1.The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to what would be given in a vocational school or academiceducational instruction;

2.The training is for the benefit of the trainees;

3.The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under their close observation;

4.The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees,and on occasion the employer’s operations may actually be impeded;

5.The trainees are not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the training period; and

6.The employer and the trainees understand that the trainees are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training.
 
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Thank you hscully.


3.The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under their close observation;
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And as I was saying earlier to a previous question...

From the article in the first post.
He cites the controversial decision by Digital Domain, a visual-effects company, to replace 30% of its paid workforce with tuition-paying Florida State University Students.
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I mentioned earlier that the 12 week internship I did lead to a 30 year journalism/photography career. There was no monetary compensation. I worked a night job to pay the bills. In retrospect I know they benefited $ from the work I did but I would have paid them for the chance to obtain experience vs. wasting valuable time floundering around trying to figure out what to do next.
 
Just a quick note:

From the first article: (post #60)
While talking to Pro Video Coalition, former Industrial Light and Magic general manager and Digital Domain founder Scott Ross described it this way:
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and from wiki...
Digital Domain is an American visual effects and animation company founded by film director James Cameron, Stan Winston and Scott Ross. It is based in Venice, Los Angeles, California. The company is known for creating innovative digital imagery for feature films, advertising and games, from its locations in California and Vancouver, BC, Canada, including its own state-of-the-art virtual production studio.
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A slight discrepency there that I wanted to point out. Otherwise I have no problem with the article as of yet.
 
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nothing said:
...How do you train skilled workers in an industry based largely on short-term freelance projects, without using unpaid internships?
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Like the old days. Apprenticeships? That's a lost word these days. If a company can't afford to do it, then don't do it. Let the industry fold or pay.

//Or if the industry isn't willing to pay, again...
 
Mark Williams said:
I mentioned earlier that the 12 week internship I did lead to a 30 year journalism/photography career. There was no monetary compensation. I worked a night job to pay the bills. In retrospect I know they benefited $ from the work I did but I would have paid them for the chance to obtain experience vs. wasting valuable time floundering around trying to figure out what to do next.
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Yes, but nowadays you can receive the gear necessary to take professional photos for your birthday. You don't need access to a dark room, developing chemicals, film, ect. What you learn are the "tricks" and composition and lighting and ect, and these no longer need a company to provide you the experience. You can even simply email a professional whose work you admire and they will probably give you a load of tips for free.
 
$5000 was just a number that was easier to type than 5000000. Oh wait, generalities and fictional examples are not allowed now?

Dude, stop being so rude. You have a opinion, people are taking your side and others are not. Please take a deep breath and calm down. It's just the internet.
 
nothing said:
So again, enough bitching - what are the solutions? How do you train skilled workers in an industry based largely on short-term freelance projects, without using unpaid internships?
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Uh, PAID internships?...My only internship was in college for a talent agency. The elderly woman who ran the place insisted on paying me, as she felt it not right that I should work without monetary compensation. It was minimum wage, but still, it was the principle.

By the way, the Unions do have apprenticeship programs. VFX people don't have unions though.
 
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Gary Huff said:
Yes, but nowadays you can receive the gear necessary to take professional photos for your birthday. You don't need access to a dark room, developing chemicals, film, ect. What you learn are the "tricks" and composition and lighting and ect, and these no longer need a company to provide you the experience. You can even simply email a professional whose work you admire and they will probably give you a load of tips for free.
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How wrong you are. I already had the necessary photography skills. During my internship I learned how the profession works, level of expectations, expected work ethic, how to network, how to take criticism, build a portfolio, magazine layout and editing and how to write to industry standards. These are all things that are still relevant today.
 
Doc Bernard said:
You have a opinion, people are taking your side and others are not. Please take a deep breath and calm down. It's just the internet.
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There you go again, trying to act like I'm all emotionally bent out of shape or something. Please stop projecting on me because it is simply not true.

If I have an opinion, and some people agree and others disagree, why are you so intent on asking me to shut up? Is my opinion somehow not as equally valid as yours?
 
Mark Williams said:
How wrong you are. I already had the necessary photography skills. During my internship I learned how the profession works, level of expectations, expected work ethic, how to network, how to take criticism, build a portfolio, magazine layout and editing and how to write to industry standards. These are all things that are still relevant today.
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That's great and all...but none of those things seems like something you have to learn while not getting paid.
 
Gary Huff said:
There you go again, trying to act like I'm all emotionally bent out of shape or something. Please stop projecting on me because it is simply not true.

If I have an opinion, and some people agree and others disagree, why are you so intent on asking me to shut up? Is my opinion somehow not as equally valid as yours?
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Hang on.......had to stop laughing. No one said "shut up". No one said your opinion wasn't valid. They were debating your position and saying it was wrong. See why people think you take things too far? Look at your language and how you react.

Look, the internship model has been in place longer than we have been alive. I am 42, so at least that long. It's cool that you don't like it and you may feel that it takes work from you. Great.

But if you don't want people who disagree with you to say so.....then why post? And why use language that makes you sound very confrontational? Have a healthy debate about the subject but keep an open mind. Be polite, not accusatory. Your last post just accused me of trying to "shut you up", which is not what I was doing. I was disagreeing with you......big difference.
 
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