I'd record on both, then use something like PluralEyes to sync them later. That you can record without thinking about it (audio) focus (no pun intend) on the interview image and link to your audio later (I use my D60/VMP & D7100 that way and it works well). Make a noise at start and end.
One man band documentary - audio advice and tips
- Thread starter leeburnett
- Start date
For attaching the USB powerbank, I have my own jerry-rigged solution involving velcro straps, otherwise, I keep the powebank in the audio bag together with the 70D. The powerbank acts just like a battery, you have to confirm the dialogue when you turn on the 70D for the powersource with the powerbank attached. I have not done extreme levels of pushing in post, but it's very clean and you can easily boost it without noise coming in.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
This may be too late, why is it that folks post these questions this close to deadline???, But for what you are doing I would get the video mic pro from Rode and leave that on the camera. Do real dual system and sync in post.
I'm a post person so I really am not worried about syncing tracks, what I would worry about is not getting them in the first place.
that said I have a shooter friend who did a series of shoots like you are talking about. He however brought someone as an assistant/ sound person. The person really had no sound experience and could have done a better job, but not bad.
He was using a NYG-2 into a Zoom H4n, and had a VMP on the camera for a guide track. His biggest mistakes on the trip was not spending enough time recording BG's and ambiences. The later trips after we had gone through post the first time he came back with a LOT more sounds and that really helped in post. I have a really large library so it wasn't a huge deal but it's nice to use sounds that are from the place if they sound decent.
I have done some recording adventures away from cities and such and the things that were really important were.
Extra cards and a way to back up in the field.
There are a few devices out that you stick a card in and it backs it up to a hard drive. Every time I had some time I would back up used cards.
Batteries, and chargers and, just power in general. It can be VERY hard to find common items like AA batteries. Also try and have some way to charge if the power is wonky.
Water, and energy bars. You often can't depend on food or water.
A case you can easily carry. After hours of travel humping an awkward or over heavy case is just brutal. Anything with wheels gets problematic out side of cities, even then old cities with cobblestones will kill you if you need to roll a case.
I'm a post person so I really am not worried about syncing tracks, what I would worry about is not getting them in the first place.
that said I have a shooter friend who did a series of shoots like you are talking about. He however brought someone as an assistant/ sound person. The person really had no sound experience and could have done a better job, but not bad.
He was using a NYG-2 into a Zoom H4n, and had a VMP on the camera for a guide track. His biggest mistakes on the trip was not spending enough time recording BG's and ambiences. The later trips after we had gone through post the first time he came back with a LOT more sounds and that really helped in post. I have a really large library so it wasn't a huge deal but it's nice to use sounds that are from the place if they sound decent.
I have done some recording adventures away from cities and such and the things that were really important were.
Extra cards and a way to back up in the field.
There are a few devices out that you stick a card in and it backs it up to a hard drive. Every time I had some time I would back up used cards.
Batteries, and chargers and, just power in general. It can be VERY hard to find common items like AA batteries. Also try and have some way to charge if the power is wonky.
Water, and energy bars. You often can't depend on food or water.
A case you can easily carry. After hours of travel humping an awkward or over heavy case is just brutal. Anything with wheels gets problematic out side of cities, even then old cities with cobblestones will kill you if you need to roll a case.
leeburnett
Active member
It was close to deadline because firstly the job wasn't even verified until very recently, and until then I was doing as much research as I could do to decide what route I wanted to go with the audio before asking on here, like a good little forum user.
Anyway, I appreciate the advice. I'm taking my laptop so backups will happen in the evening, what sort of devices are you talking about, any chance you could link me to some?
And why particularly would you just use the VMP on the camera rather than have the tascam and ntg on camera recording to both that and the camera? When it's off camera (may not happen) I'll just use the inbuilt mic. I would do what you're saying but I don't really have another £150 to spend on a sub-par mic just for ease of editing. Like you, I don't mind spending time in post getting it right.
Also, I get the feeling I will heavily be relying on ambient sound to mix into interviews and for background... any advice on what usually works and what doesn't? Or just generally try and capture some long ambient clips of the place I'm in.
Anyway, I appreciate the advice. I'm taking my laptop so backups will happen in the evening, what sort of devices are you talking about, any chance you could link me to some?
And why particularly would you just use the VMP on the camera rather than have the tascam and ntg on camera recording to both that and the camera? When it's off camera (may not happen) I'll just use the inbuilt mic. I would do what you're saying but I don't really have another £150 to spend on a sub-par mic just for ease of editing. Like you, I don't mind spending time in post getting it right.
Also, I get the feeling I will heavily be relying on ambient sound to mix into interviews and for background... any advice on what usually works and what doesn't? Or just generally try and capture some long ambient clips of the place I'm in.
FWIW, I asked a similar question last month:
Field Video/Audio Data Offload Storage solution?
There are some links to products within that thread, but I have not as yet pulled the trigger on any of them. Years ago, I used to have a "photobank" device that was basically a hard drive with a screen to which you could offload photos from your card in the field. But then cards got really big, and cheap, and the market for those "photobanks" collapsed, so they stopped making them... the one I had, topped out at like 50GB
. Basically my question was whether somebody had updated the product line and are there new solutions.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
I use a device from these guys
http://www.nextodi.com/product/
The reason I would not have it all together is that you will end up with something very bulky and awkward to use. I guess if you have a big frame for it or it's all tripod work?
What I have heard of the VMP has been rather good. The built in mic on DSLRs is next to useless so you have to do something. If you go with the frankinrig you have to feed the camera and monitor, well you need to monitor anyway so? A shotgun mounted on a DSLR is kind of a PITA so I wouldn't do it. The VMP seems to not pick up so much camera noise and it's a LOT shorter. On shoots when I have been running sound and jumping it to the camera the camera people are forever unplugging me so they don't have to deal with the cable. It works but it's a lot of connect disconnect or coordinated "dancing" so we don't trip over each other. This has been on documentary, run and gun "reality" type shoots. If I were doing it today I would use a wireless hop to the camera.
My general rule is the best set up is the one you can actually use. I would find all the stuff around the camera problematic, but that may be me and not you.
The mics built in to the 70 may be not bad for picking up ambiences. They are certainly not "high end" mics but they have a leg up since they have been designed to work with the recorder and have no cable run etc so they should be as good as they can be, where an external mic you have to make sure you set it up optimally.
But I should define some terms so you know what I'm talking about.
BG/ Ambience. These are general things you record when you are not shooting picture. The difference between the two is murky but generally BG's are more sight specific, like a NYC city sounds where an ambience is more generic like the sound of a room or crickets or quiet just about anything.
FX are specific sounds you record when you are not shooting picture. Things like door closes, gun shots, and things that you can use to make sounds which is just about anything.
Foley, is very specific and it's not likely at all that you will do any real Foley (which needs to be done and recorded in sync with picture. You might do some Foley like FX recordings like foot steps etc. and then cut them in afterward.
So...
Some folks go off trying to record everything at once. This pretty much never works and an be a real mess. The one catch is that for some folks doing Doc. and journalism there is an ethical issue with using sounds that were not recorded while shooting picture. I personally don't have a problem as long as you are not "lying" with the sound. So for instance one that came up as a hot topic a short time ago was a doc about a sheep ranch and when they went to record the sheep they were scared of the mic and instantly shut up. The producer ended up adding sheep sounds from a different place. I don't have a problem with that but some folks have a BIG problem with it. Since you are kind of doing a doc. you should be aware of the issue.
Assuming you don't have to just use what was recorded while you shoot I would probably use the built in mics for BG's and ambiences and the shotgun for specifics. generally I would use a hyper for specifics but shotguns are also common.
If the built in mics are really bad or noisy then you have a problem because a decent stereo mic setup is not cheap. You might actually be better off buying a DR-40, it would certainly be cheaper.
http://www.nextodi.com/product/
The reason I would not have it all together is that you will end up with something very bulky and awkward to use. I guess if you have a big frame for it or it's all tripod work?
What I have heard of the VMP has been rather good. The built in mic on DSLRs is next to useless so you have to do something. If you go with the frankinrig you have to feed the camera and monitor, well you need to monitor anyway so? A shotgun mounted on a DSLR is kind of a PITA so I wouldn't do it. The VMP seems to not pick up so much camera noise and it's a LOT shorter. On shoots when I have been running sound and jumping it to the camera the camera people are forever unplugging me so they don't have to deal with the cable. It works but it's a lot of connect disconnect or coordinated "dancing" so we don't trip over each other. This has been on documentary, run and gun "reality" type shoots. If I were doing it today I would use a wireless hop to the camera.
My general rule is the best set up is the one you can actually use. I would find all the stuff around the camera problematic, but that may be me and not you.
The mics built in to the 70 may be not bad for picking up ambiences. They are certainly not "high end" mics but they have a leg up since they have been designed to work with the recorder and have no cable run etc so they should be as good as they can be, where an external mic you have to make sure you set it up optimally.
But I should define some terms so you know what I'm talking about.
BG/ Ambience. These are general things you record when you are not shooting picture. The difference between the two is murky but generally BG's are more sight specific, like a NYC city sounds where an ambience is more generic like the sound of a room or crickets or quiet just about anything.
FX are specific sounds you record when you are not shooting picture. Things like door closes, gun shots, and things that you can use to make sounds which is just about anything.
Foley, is very specific and it's not likely at all that you will do any real Foley (which needs to be done and recorded in sync with picture. You might do some Foley like FX recordings like foot steps etc. and then cut them in afterward.
So...
Some folks go off trying to record everything at once. This pretty much never works and an be a real mess. The one catch is that for some folks doing Doc. and journalism there is an ethical issue with using sounds that were not recorded while shooting picture. I personally don't have a problem as long as you are not "lying" with the sound. So for instance one that came up as a hot topic a short time ago was a doc about a sheep ranch and when they went to record the sheep they were scared of the mic and instantly shut up. The producer ended up adding sheep sounds from a different place. I don't have a problem with that but some folks have a BIG problem with it. Since you are kind of doing a doc. you should be aware of the issue.
Assuming you don't have to just use what was recorded while you shoot I would probably use the built in mics for BG's and ambiences and the shotgun for specifics. generally I would use a hyper for specifics but shotguns are also common.
If the built in mics are really bad or noisy then you have a problem because a decent stereo mic setup is not cheap. You might actually be better off buying a DR-40, it would certainly be cheaper.
leeburnett
Active member
OK thanks for all of that.
Basically, I'm going to try and set up audio kit off camera at all times, the shot-list is very loose so can be controlled to a certain degree to accommodate off-camera audio, which I am taking a separate tripod for. I also have a roland r-05 stereo mic that I could take for ambiences as it is incredibly compact, can be handheld and has a decent sound.
As for on-camera audio I wasn't going to use the sound in the final production, no way, not ever, just for syncing. I figured that having the audio set-up on top of the shoulder rig when I am doing walking shots (as there will be a few) then I can capture specifics with the shotgun mic, plus if there is any unexpected dialogue I could more easily capture that.
Thanks for your help
Basically, I'm going to try and set up audio kit off camera at all times, the shot-list is very loose so can be controlled to a certain degree to accommodate off-camera audio, which I am taking a separate tripod for. I also have a roland r-05 stereo mic that I could take for ambiences as it is incredibly compact, can be handheld and has a decent sound.
As for on-camera audio I wasn't going to use the sound in the final production, no way, not ever, just for syncing. I figured that having the audio set-up on top of the shoulder rig when I am doing walking shots (as there will be a few) then I can capture specifics with the shotgun mic, plus if there is any unexpected dialogue I could more easily capture that.
Thanks for your help
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
For things like Amb. and BG's you can often get away with a lot since it's not the main sound and you are going to mix it fairly low. A lot of hiss and noise can be a pain but in general even marginal recordings can be fine depending on how it's used.
Any sounds that have a featured presence you want as clean as humanly possible, so a BG that IS featured needs to be cleaner than one that sits at a low level to give texture.
Dialog is always a "featured" sound and it's the one thing you can't really cheat after the fact.
RE: dedicated backup box VS laptop. The two biggest reasons to use the box over a laptop are.
1) battery life. I toured Portugal for two weeks recording everyday and backing up once or twice a day Mostly audio but also stills) and when I came back I still had 60% of the battery left and I never charged on the trip.
2) pure simplicity. I know laptops never crash or have any software glitches, but the box does one thing, mine only has one button. So it's very stable and really has as close to zero a chance of crashing as you are going to get in an electronic device.
Now neither of the above may be an issue for you but it's why I brought the box. It also was a lot smaller, lighter and not very theft worthy. The down side of course is that you can't do any of the other things you could do with a laptop. That wasn't an issue for me I wasn't going to have access to WiFi and I wasn't viewing/ editing/ etc on the road. Today I would add a tablet and still leave the laptop at home, but again I was not shooting footage that I might want to review or log in the field.
Any sounds that have a featured presence you want as clean as humanly possible, so a BG that IS featured needs to be cleaner than one that sits at a low level to give texture.
Dialog is always a "featured" sound and it's the one thing you can't really cheat after the fact.
RE: dedicated backup box VS laptop. The two biggest reasons to use the box over a laptop are.
1) battery life. I toured Portugal for two weeks recording everyday and backing up once or twice a day Mostly audio but also stills) and when I came back I still had 60% of the battery left and I never charged on the trip.
2) pure simplicity. I know laptops never crash or have any software glitches, but the box does one thing, mine only has one button. So it's very stable and really has as close to zero a chance of crashing as you are going to get in an electronic device.
Now neither of the above may be an issue for you but it's why I brought the box. It also was a lot smaller, lighter and not very theft worthy. The down side of course is that you can't do any of the other things you could do with a laptop. That wasn't an issue for me I wasn't going to have access to WiFi and I wasn't viewing/ editing/ etc on the road. Today I would add a tablet and still leave the laptop at home, but again I was not shooting footage that I might want to review or log in the field.