On-set sound - crew of 1, 2 or more - how to simplify?

T

teayce

Well-known member
Trying to figure out if I need another crew person to handle sound or another configuration of gear to simplify...

My plan is to record both to a digital recorder (PMD-661) and also to camera for easier sync (and backup) via MixPre from a boompole-mounted Oktava MK012 w/BBG.

This seems like a handful for one person - how do you take your hand off the boompole to ride the levels? I figure a second person is involved to handle the mixer and recorder, but how do the boom op and the mixer/recorder op coordinate? Are they both monitoring via headphones off the MixPre? The recorder?

I guess what I'm asking is what is the best way to set this scenario up? Crew? Cabling? Monitoring? Etc.? How do you pros do it?

Thanks.
Troy
 
I've boomed and mixed at the same time plenty. It can be done, and you can ride the levels with the boom pole itself a little bit, (by backing off) or you can balance the boom on your shoulder with one hand and adjust levels with the other <-- Tricky :)

If you have the space on 661, just let it roll until you break for lunch. 9 times out of 10 you'll never use it anyway, as long as someone is Properly* listening to the camera audio. I don't usually record a backup if I can monitor the camera audio and it is HQ... but I like to live dangerously.

* by properly, I mean with correct levels so you aren't surprised in post with a weak or distorted signal.

Having two people is great. One to mix, write down takes/ notes and one to boom.

One person should always monitor off the camera. The other can listen from the recorder or the mixer.
 
Some guys put the boom across their shoulder or even head... and ride levels that way... sometimes a scene is totally predictable and it's positioning more so then levels (during the scene)... booming and mixing is pretty normal for 90% of the location sound guys out there... but if you have people with less experience then I'd suggest a boom op and separate mixer. The cheapest way for a boom op to hear what he's doing (apart from the mixer) is to get a Rolls PM50 SOB... (a total bargain for what it does and how well it does it).
 
Tim Joy said:
I've boomed and mixed at the same time plenty. It can be done, and you can ride the levels with the boom pole itself a little bit, (by backing off) or you can balance the boom on your shoulder with one hand and adjust levels with the other <-- Tricky :)

If you have the space on 661, just let it roll until you break for lunch. 9 times out of 10 you'll never use it anyway, as long as someone is Properly* listening to the camera audio. I don't usually record a backup if I can monitor the camera audio and it is HQ... but I like to live dangerously.

* by properly, I mean with correct levels so you aren't surprised in post with a weak or distorted signal.

Having two people is great. One to mix, write down takes/ notes and one to boom.

One person should always monitor off the camera. The other can listen from the recorder or the mixer.
Click to expand...

In this scenario, is everybody wearing headphones? Camera op, boom op, mixer/recorder op? Camera op monitors cam audio, boom op monitors boom audio (for boom placement) and mixer op monitors whats being sent to the cam and recorder?

This seems overly complex - or perhaps it is just the way I'm trying to do it. In reality, the easiest way for me to do this would simply skip running the audio to the camera and just use the on-board mic for sync with field recorder in post. This way I'm not tethered to the camera and I can just have a sound crew of 2 - each monitoring there respective gear. If I am using the MixPre, PMD-661 and 2 sets of MDR-7506 phones, what would be the best way to setup monitoring for each sound person? What cabling/equipment might be needed?

Thanks again.
 
MattinSTL said:
Some guys put the boom across their shoulder or even head... and ride levels that way... sometimes a scene is totally predictable and it's positioning more so then levels (during the scene)... booming and mixing is pretty normal for 90% of the location sound guys out there... but if you have people with less experience then I'd suggest a boom op and separate mixer. The cheapest way for a boom op to hear what he's doing (apart from the mixer) is to get a Rolls PM50 SOB... (a total bargain for what it does and how well it does it).
Click to expand...

My guys are new to this, so simpler is better - how does the Rolls PM50 fit into the Boom Mic - MixPre - PMD661 - Headphone equation? Should the mix/rec operator be monitoring the recorder or the mixer or BOTH (and if both, how)?

thanks
 
No need for the cam op to wear headphones, just use an extension and send it to the sound mixer person, then use the mixPre headphone out for the boom op. (using a headphone extension cable)


IMO, it's less complicated to have audio on the camera, rather than needing to clap the slate for every take and manually sync it up in post. If you have a lot of running/ moving shots then sure, record double system to free the camera, but if the cam is just sitting on sticks or a dolly, why not send your boom to it? Most prosumer cams these days have great audio, especially when goinin line-in.
 
rolls pm50 is a sweet gadget. boom op wears it on his hip, plugs in boom xlr to it and his headphones so that he can monitor his direct audio. then another xlr runs out of it to mixer.

its more of a cheaper version of a boom duplex cable.
 
manglerBMX said:
rolls pm50 is a sweet gadget. boom op wears it on his hip, plugs in boom xlr to it and his headphones so that he can monitor his direct audio. then another xlr runs out of it to mixer.

its more of a cheaper version of a boom duplex cable.
Click to expand...

how does an inexpensive device like the Rolls affect the quality of the sound going into the mixer? I see other devices in the 100's of dollars. I know I'm not using the top-end gear, but right now I have a pretty clean path using Canare cables and the MixPre.
 
It doesn't affect the signal enough to matter for your use. Let me put it this way... if THAT affects your signal too much then you wouldn't be using a 661 recorder.

Trust me, you should be WAY more worried about poor booming technique... and the little Rolls device goes MILES towards helping that... so both the boom op AND mixer can hear the audio (answering the other question... meaning, ANYBODY that is responsible for sound on a production had better be LISTENING to sound, on that production)... then the output from the mixpre goes on to the cam (and really, you should have a return from the cam to monitor what hit the tape, instead of what's running FROM the mixer... all EASY to do... and necessary to guarantee results <- crucial point.)
 
teayce said:
how does an inexpensive device like the Rolls affect the quality of the sound going into the mixer? I see other devices in the 100's of dollars. I know I'm not using the top-end gear, but right now I have a pretty clean path using Canare cables and the MixPre.
Click to expand...


Like Matt mentioned, proper boom technique is more important than how expensive/inexpensive your gears are. Canare Cables are used through the entire A/V industry, I wouldn't sweat about it. Several documentaries and shows (HBO, Discovery, Food Network) have been using a MixPre because they don't require a large amount of track count for mixing and recording. I wouldn't worry about the MixPre.

It would be useless if you had a $2000 microphone at the end of your boompole and you missed nearly half the cues, even when there were rehearsals. Look at the older films produced between 1950's to 1980's. I LOVE the sound because it was simple and had a perspective rather than all upfront and dry sounding. Some boom shawdows were shown on picture, but the shows still aired it. Why? The story was good.

Style over Substance.
 
Tim Joy said:
No need for the cam op to wear headphones, just use an extension and send it to the sound mixer person, then use the mixPre headphone out for the boom op. (using a headphone extension cable)


IMO, it's less complicated to have audio on the camera, rather than needing to clap the slate for every take and manually sync it up in post. If you have a lot of running/ moving shots then sure, record double system to free the camera, but if the cam is just sitting on sticks or a dolly, why not send your boom to it? Most prosumer cams these days have great audio, especially when goinin line-in.
Click to expand...

Let's say we're recording double system and the line outs of the mixer is sent out to the Camera. Audio sent to the double-system recorder was good, but the audio coming into the camera was distorted and unusable because nobody was monitoring the camera audio with headphones. Producer/director calls you up during post and ask why the audio is distorted in camera. You tell the producer/director that the backup recorder got good signal and offered to hand all the recordings to the editor. Now that post knows the audio coming from the recorder was good, they have to manually sync every take. Darn, where's the Stick. Oops, no sticks. We had no time for it.

Even though the DP/cam op is the editor for the project, one must always slate a take regardless if they know or have their own naming/numbering system. This is especially important when doing small and short takes. When approached with long-form takes, sticks aren't necessary because the editor can sync the entire clip by looking at the waveform. A possibility that drift may occur, but you can cut and slip the times easily because there is already a place marker to begin with.
 
MattinSTL said:
It doesn't affect the signal enough to matter for your use. Let me put it this way... if THAT affects your signal too much then you wouldn't be using a 661 recorder.

Trust me, you should be WAY more worried about poor booming technique... and the little Rolls device goes MILES towards helping that... so both the boom op AND mixer can hear the audio (answering the other question... meaning, ANYBODY that is responsible for sound on a production had better be LISTENING to sound, on that production)... then the output from the mixpre goes on to the cam (and really, you should have a return from the cam to monitor what hit the tape, instead of what's running FROM the mixer... all EASY to do... and necessary to guarantee results <- crucial point.)
Click to expand...


points taken - I will look further into the device. out of curiosity, do you not like the PMD-661? I just ordered it based on the reviews I have read - not too late to change the order.

thanks again for your wisdom.

troy
 
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Alan H. Chang said:
Let's say we're recording double system and the line outs of the mixer is sent out to the Camera. Audio sent to the double-system recorder was good, but the audio coming into the camera was distorted and unusable because nobody was monitoring the camera audio with headphones. Producer/director calls you up during post and ask why the audio is distorted in camera. You tell the producer/director that the backup recorder got good signal and offered to hand all the recordings to the editor. Now that post knows the audio coming from the recorder was good, they have to manually sync every take. Darn, where's the Stick. Oops, no sticks. We had no time for it.

Even though the DP/cam op is the editor for the project, one must always slate a take regardless if they know or have their own naming/numbering system. This is especially important when doing small and short takes. When approached with long-form takes, sticks aren't necessary because the editor can sync the entire clip by looking at the waveform. A possibility that drift may occur, but you can cut and slip the times easily because there is already a place marker to begin with.
Click to expand...


got it - that's good advice.

troy
 
""When approached with long-form takes, sticks aren't necessary because the editor can sync the entire clip by looking at the waveform. A possibility that drift may occur, but you can cut and slip the times easily because there is already a place marker to begin with.""

Not true! Slate every take!!!
 
BRH said:
""When approached with long-form takes, sticks aren't necessary because the editor can sync the entire clip by looking at the waveform. A possibility that drift may occur, but you can cut and slip the times easily because there is already a place marker to begin with.""

Not true! Slate every take!!!
Click to expand...

You're right, slate every take. There is ONLY one director that I've worked with on all three features that slate wasn't used. Multicam shoot. When shooting 30-45 minute takes, it's not mandatory to slate because you can simply drag and drop, slip the audio file into the timeline with the onboard audio and you have almost the same exact form to edit with. As a sound editor, I find this very easy to work with. Would I prefer sticks for such long takes? Not necessarily. It would be nice to have it in the heads or tails of the takes, but not mandatory.
 
I've witnessed this new 'long form'.. , but haven't done any. Roll on 20 minute tape from beginning to end. I just meant better to slate the beginning anyway.
 
Alan H. Chang said:
You're right, slate every take. There is ONLY one director that I've worked with on all three features that slate wasn't used. Multicam shoot. When shooting 30-45 minute takes, it's not mandatory to slate because you can simply drag and drop, slip the audio file into the timeline with the onboard audio and you have almost the same exact form to edit with. As a sound editor, I find this very easy to work with. Would I prefer sticks for such long takes? Not necessarily. It would be nice to have it in the heads or tails of the takes, but not mandatory.
Click to expand...

So when you have 20 takes (OK a bit of an exaggeration, usually) The editor is supposed to go through one at a time trying to figure out which one was used? Don't think so. Always slate, or pay later.
 
Noiz2 said:
So when you have 20 takes (OK a bit of an exaggeration, usually) The editor is supposed to go through one at a time trying to figure out which one was used? Don't think so. Always slate, or pay later.
Click to expand...

Yeah, when having that many takes, it's a no-brainer to slate every take. I'm referring to those days when it's usually just a couple of takes (say 3-7). Chances of each take lasting the same amount of time, again 30-32 minutes long, slate is required. When take1 is 30 minutes, take2 is 15 minutes, take3 is 35 minutes, you can usually see how long the waveforms are and select the correct one and slip edit.

I totally understand where everyone is coming from regarding sticks in picture and sound, but sometimes slate may end up having to be placed on hold. Quick way is to write scene/take and just put it in visual w/ sound and slate. go. Thanks for bringing that up Noiz. As said, slate should be a priority unless time or other factors permit it to be on hold.
 
teayce said:
points taken - I will look further into the device. out of curiosity, do you not like the PMD-661? I just ordered it based on the reviews I have read - not too late to change the order.

thanks again for your wisdom.

troy
Click to expand...


meh, don't call it wisdom... it's just some experience.

The 661 is fine... my point was that had you said you were using a 744t I may not have suggested the little rolls device... but for everybody else... it's fine. Trust me... you'll be MILES ahead having it... rather then NOT having it.

As I said before... only the SOUND DEPARTMENT really needs to hear the audio... but everybody involved in that part of the production should be hearing it... the Rolls PM50 (SOB... important) is what allows the extra set of ears (as well as the ability to TALK to the boom op DURING the take! (how about that feature?)
 
It's amazing how many school students/grads are trying to get away without using a slate. I've been on two productions recently... brought my TS-C smart slate marked up for the production...and it never made it out of the box!!!!! WTF?

The reasoning from the producer/camera/director/et al was that it would slow down production. Oh yeah? Wait until you get to post and have to log/capture all your footage and spend hours deciding which take was the one to print. The simple solution would have been to use the sticks, or even a handclap (down and dirty slating) ... Something, anything. Oh, let's not forget the footage log...!

Another quirk was convincing the producer/camera/director/et al ' don't forget the sound guy' refrain about putting on his headphones to monitor on camera audio since we were running from mixer (SD302) to camera (DVX100B). I'd have to say that at least 60% of the takes recorded were not monitored on camera.

Since this production, I have invested in the SD442 Mixer and Hirose camera snake from Trew Audio that allows both the camera op and myself to monitor camera audio via 'return A'.

Another investment in my kit to the tune of $2,800... which undoubtedly will go unnoticed by those folks hiring me out. Glad I made the investment regardless.

On many jobs, I am both Boom Op and Mixer/Recordist. I find that riding levels is pretty simple once you have levels for each talent on camera. Whether booming or riding wireless lav levels, I can get pretty close. That's one of the reasons I fully support Sound Devices for my sound kit. Quality, reliabilty, flexibility and adapability out in the field.

As long as I have set the levels to -12 coming out of the mixer into the camera via the tone generator in the 302 or 442 mixers, I know I have a hot enough signal without distortion. It is also important to check your input level into the camera... is it mic level or line level? On the 442 mixer you can choose what level you want coming out of the mixer... and match that to the camera inputs.
 
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