On camera shock-mount for long shotgun microphone

J

Joshua_G

Well-known member
I'm looking for effective on camera long shotgun microphone shock-mount.
The candidates I found so fare are:
Rycote InVision Video Hot Shoe Microphone Suspension - Lyre Shockmount: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/629485-REG/Rycote_042901_InVision_Video_Hot_Shoe.html
Rycote INV-7 InVision Microphone Suspension: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/554999-REG/Rycote_041107_INV_7_InVision_Indoor_Microphone.html
Rode SM3 - On-Camera Shock Mount for Shotgun Microphones: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/398316-REG/Rode_SM3_SM3_On_Camera_Shockmount.html
Auray DUSM-1 Universal Shock Mount: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/885660-REG/auray_dusm_1_universal_shock_mount.html

Which one of those, or any other shock-mount, is recommended?
 
As it happens, I have both of those first two Rycote systems you listed. The first one would be my choice. The mounting is designed for on-camera use and the lyres are relatively stiff so a long microphone won't sag too much.

The second item is intended more for boompole use with a lighter/shorter microphone suspended near its center of gravity. The lyres are made of a softer plastic, and would probably allow the end of a longer shotgun to point downward if used on camera.

I use the "hot shoe" system for my camera and the INV-7 on a boompole, and each is excellent in its role, but they're different enough that you wouldn't want to interchange them.

The Rode and Auray are very similar and are the more traditional rubber band style shockmounts; in fact, I have the Rode one also. Good in their time, but the Rycote lyre system blows both away in effectiveness, convenience and durability.

- Greg
 
Yes I completely agree with Mr. Smith.

Those "rubber-band" style shock-mounts wear out and good luck trying to find proper replacements for the rubber parts.
My rule is that if they aren't selling the replacement wear-out parts there on the same website, it is essentially disposable.

While the Rycote products are more expensive, they don't suffer from that wear-out/replacement problem.
And that is why they are far and away the favorite of professional users.

And that second candidate isn't really suitable for on-camera mounting. It was designed for boom pole use.
 
Rycote Lyre system, no doubt.

I use the Rycote INV 7 HG MKIII both on camera and on a boom. For on camera use I have modified it in regards to how it attaches to the camera, but that has no effect on the suspension part itself. The Rycote Lyre system works a lot better then any kind of rubber suspension I've ever tried.

What microphone will you be using? If you go to Rycote's pages you can search for your microphone and find which suspension and other accessories they have and recommend for it. Like this: http://mymic.rycote.com/devices/cmit-5u/.
 
I would have thought that a long shotgun mic will be in shot at the top of frame, short shotgun mics often are, a long mic would be worse.
Shotgun mics indoors are bad for reflections, a long shotgun..... Good luck

What sort of mic were you intending to use?

remember shotgun mics do NOT act like zoom lenses.
 
AlexNOR said:
Rycote Lyre system, no doubt.

I use the Rycote INV 7 HG MKIII both on camera and on a boom. For on camera use I have modified it in regards to how it attaches to the camera, but that has no effect on the suspension part itself. The Rycote Lyre system works a lot better then any kind of rubber suspension I've ever tried.

What microphone will you be using? If you go to Rycote's pages you can search for your microphone and find which suspension and other accessories they have and recommend for it. Like this: http://mymic.rycote.com/devices/cmit-5u/.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Alex.
I'll get the the Rycote INV 7 HG MKIII.
I have AT875R and the AT4073a is on its' way, it may get here within about 2 weeks.
According to Rycote, the INV 7 HG suites both of them. However for the AT875R, covered with foam (and fur), the conventional INV 7 didn't fit, so I got the INV 6.
Once the AT4073a will arrive, I'll conduct a shootout between the 2 AT's and the Rode VideoMic Pro.


OzGizmo said:
I would have thought that a long shotgun mic will be in shot at the top of frame, short shotgun mics often are, a long mic would be worse.
Shotgun mics indoors are bad for reflections, a long shotgun..... Good luck

What sort of mic were you intending to use?

remember shotgun mics do NOT act like zoom lenses.
Click to expand...

Having 2, soon 3 mics, I'll be able to compare and choose from.
My prime concern is sound quality (if it will matter much for an on-camera mic). Possibly one will suit better indoors and another one outdoors. I wouldn't know before testing.
Handling is second. There is a possible workaround for a too long mic with a bracket going sideways and another one going backwards. Right now it's too soon to even think about it.
 
I still don't understand why anyone would try and mount a VERY sensitive microphone on a small camera... You do understand that the back of a shotgun mic is also a very sensitive (just look at the polar patterns).
Have a look at news crews and how their systems are setup and don't you think if there was a cheaper way to get good video and good sound they would be doing it?
 
I'm not trying to lecture you, but you have headed down a path (like so many other people) of trying to get the best sound from a camera mounted microphone. The internet is littered with similar postings like yours on audio forums, and people on those forums see the same questions come up almost weekly somewhere so what your trying to do is nothing new.
We are just trying to ask some questions to get you thinking and hopefully save you some money in the long run....nothing more than that.
The next steps along the path that you come across with be 'recording a mono mic into a stereo input of the camera' there are traps there that you haven't thought about yet, then we go camera noise floor issues, then the portable recorder (which one?), then the battery life v phantom power subject..... We have seen it ALL before.
Then by the time you have added the 80+ accessories to your small camera you will realise that despite how much money, time and effort you throw up against a problem you still can't change the laws of physics and nature.
We would ALL like to have a camera that we can put in our pocket with the optics that see beyond the horizon and be able to pick up clear sound from that distance as well.... BUT its not going to happen.

Good luck with your journey.
 
How refreshing to see such a non-lecture.
At my (advanced) age, I'm amused to be treated like a noise-running kid.
I'm more amused to see the prophecies of someone who knows nothing about me, my age and my experience in sound, movies and electronics.

When some people feel good about themselves by patronizing others, they feeling good is very positive (in my view).
 
Joshua,

You may not like what you are hearing for advice, or the way in which it is delivered, but regardless of your attitude about that, you are getting the truth rather than what you want to hear. The audio section is littered with threads exactly like this in which the OP didn't hear what they wanted and decided that the folks dispensing advice were all ass-holes. Of course we are, all of us.

You might imagine hanging a more sensitive mic from the top of your cam will be a good thing, but it is a fools errand. The more sensitive your mic, the more handling noise you will record, especially from where you are located to run the cam. Imagine some nice heavy breathing right on top of your interview, or some clunky banging whenever you touch the cam. This is made worse because in order to record your subject a few feet away, you will have to crank up the gain. Of course you are closer to the mic than your subject so your movements are recorded hotter than your subject, polar pattern regardless. And that is hard to get rid of in post. The only time this will work for you is if you are tripod mounted in a quiet place and don't touch the cam. And why would you use that scheme when there are better options like mounting the mic on a C-stand with arm (if you are working alone).

If you are determined to do the cam mounted mic, you might want to look at some of the K-Tek mounts linked below. They make multiple options, both long and short versions, they hold the mic much more securely than clip in types, and the rubber is a bit stiffer than the super soft type mounts. This is good and bad, stiffer = more handling noise, but it won't sag as much if you do use a longer mic or need wind protection, K-tek mounts are compact, very secure and nicely made. They do have a couple of stiffness options for the rubbers as well. Check out all the different configurations:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/323324-REG/K_Tek_K_SSM_K_SSM_Shock_Mount.html

If you want an opinion on mic choice, I'd go with the 875 if you have phantom power or one of the Rode VMP products if you don't. Why would you bother to hang a nice sensitive and expensive mic in a place where it will be disadvantaged because of the very features that make it a good mic.

Grant
 
Any more patronizing lectures about what I didn't ask?

Also, why some people thing that their opinion is better than the shootout I'm going to make?
 
I have found that any long shotgun casts a shadow so I tend to use a short one like the AT875 or the stock panasonic AG-MC700 that came with my HPX371.

Remember that the capsule on all shotguns is at the rear of the phase cancellation tube so you have to be careful that it does not pick up creaking or servo noise from adjacent devices and it is also why on camera mics are a huge compromise and are generally only there as a back up or to get generic effects.

I just use the mount that came with the camera for general effects etc but the rycote lyre seems to be the best out there.
 
My first question is - what do you mean by "long shotgun"?

A long shotgun is something like a Sennheisr MKH 816, K6+ME67 or K3+ME88. All of these are far too long to mount on a camera and should not even be considered.

If you mean a short shotgun - like the Sennheiser MKH 416 and the like - then this should be OK.

I would use a Rycote camera mount, or the Rycore INV-7HG with the camera adaptor. The INV-7HG will lift the microphone higher than the camera mount to help keep it out of shot better.
 
Joshua_G said:
Any more patronizing lectures about what I didn't ask?

Also, why some people thing that their opinion is better than the shootout I'm going to make?
Click to expand...

If you ask a silly question don't expect no-patronizing responses. You asked what mount was prefered for a mic that folks wouldn't use. They told you why they wouldn't use that kind of mic but if you need the simple answer then it is NONE are prefered for your use. It's kind of asking what is the prefered cruising altitude of a VW bug. Since flying one would be a very bad idea most folks would tell you why you shouldn't do it rather than trying to "answer" the silly question.

The answer to your second question is experience. A "shootout" of VW's at different cruising altitudes is kind of meaningless if the end result is that they all fall to the earth like stones.
 
Joshua_G said:
Also, why some people think that their opinion is better than the shootout I'm going to make?
Click to expand...

I assume that if you are going to do a shootout you will also be comparing that various camera mounted mics to a properly positioned boom mic either a short shotgun outdoors or a Hyper indoors.

If you are just going to do a shootout with ONLY camera mounted mics then don't bother....... We all are aware of the poor results that will be achieved (we have all been there done that)
 
OzGizmo said:
If you are just going to do a shootout with ONLY camera mounted mics then don't bother.......
Click to expand...


To do such a shootout in a meaningful way, one would have to place the mics where the mics should be (so that one could meaningfully say "I'm comparing those mics in terms of sound quality, rather in terms of the impact of their placement). That is equivalent to treating the camera as if it were just part of a mic stand. The "result" that one thought such a shootout might yield can be very deceptive if applied to reality.

In reality, the place where a mic should be, and the place where the camera should be, are typically not the same. With camera mounted mics, the mic and the camera are forced to always be together in the same place. If the place is best for the mic, one typically won't get the best shot. If the place is best for the cam, one typically won't get the best sound. For the overall best result, one has to independently treat the mic and the camera. They are nevertheless two different kinds of tool.

Additionally, such a shootout is equivalent to mounting different cameras on a mic stand and place the mic stand where the mic should be (for example, right in front of a speaker's mount and pointing towards that talking mouth), and then comparing the performance of those cameras. The comparison "result" can be anything but useful.

So, just as already said, "don't bother..."
 
Well the mic test between poorly placed and disadvantaged mics would surely prove which mic responds best to bad placement or which mic sounds worst under a bad situation.

The OP didn't specify what cam is being used, but in my experience, using high quality handy cams, that often the onboard mic sounds about as good as whatever you hang on the cam. Stiff breeze excepted. If there is an onboard mic, that should be included as a baseline. I'd be curious how that compares.
 
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