On camera microphone

J

Joshua_G

Well-known member
First, I'm well aware of the poor sound coming from an on-camera microphone, whatever microphone is used.
Yet, for a one-man Run n' Gun in uncontrolled documentary situations, at times there is no other option.

I own an AT875R (including foam, fur windshield, Rycote InVision shockmount and few Tascam recorders).

  1. Is there a better microphone for that purpose under $400?
  2. Is the Rode VideoMic Pro about as good as the AT? (It will eliminate the extra recorder, thus ease the movability).
 
"Is there a better microphone for that purpose under $400?"
- A pre owned AT 4073 (if you can find one). Short, lightweight, great sound and HIGH output. (about 71 mV)
Like any mic, you'll want a shock mount and wind suppression. A cheap foam cover is only adequate for a very gentle breeze.. if even that. The Rycote Invision mount is the current favorite for most folks.
 
The AT875R has a good reputation and is generally considered to punch above its weight in the performance-for-the-price department. Why can't you use it directly on your camcorder without the external recorder? (Phantom power issue?)

- Greg
 
Joshua_G said:
First, I'm well aware of the poor sound coming from an on-camera microphone, whatever microphone is used.
Click to expand...

Then you've answered your own question. You know that the position of the mic is a lot more important than the brand/model of the mic. Out of position, all mics will sound more-or-less equally bad.

That said, your AT875R will be just fine for this duty. Or any other low end shotgun should be equally acceptable to your purposes. Use whatever is cheap/convenient and fits well with your personal workflow.
 
The Audio Technica 875R that you already have was made specifically for this, putting it on top of a camera. That's why its handling noise and rear rejection are so good. It's also a newer mic, which is why its quality-per-dollar is better than some of the company's older ones (read more about it, in Dan Brockett's side-by-side tests).

Joshua_G said:
Is the Rode VideoMic Pro about as good as the AT? (It will eliminate the extra recorder, thus ease the movability)
Click to expand...

Does your camera have no XLR jack of its own? Then yes, it would be fine to go with the Rode VideoMic. Although the 875R probably subtly sounds better, the difference is lost at the distance you'd be holding it, atop your camera.
 
Joshua_G said:
Is the Rode VideoMic Pro about as good as the AT? (It will eliminate the extra recorder, thus ease the movability).

Click to expand...

There is a comparison on YouTube:

By the comparison, the AT is technically slightly better whereas Rode VMP is obviously more convenient to use as an on-cam mic for DSLR. In real-world applications, the differences in sound quality between the two mics are likely too subtle to be noticeable. Whichever is more convenient is probably a better choice to you.

However, it looks like you have been recording 875r into a recorder not because you choose to, but because you have had no other option. So you probably don't a camera with XLR support. If that's the case, here's the question that only you can answer for yourself: do you want to pay the price of a new mic just for the level of mobility you wish to have?

Under $400 it's unlikely that you can find a better sounding mic that is significantly better than Rode VMP. You'll need at least $600 to get something like Rode NTG-3. NTG-3 picks up sound much farther away, so even if mounted on cam, it's a lot better than VMP.
 
We should clear up a few things. First any comparison of sound quality on a YouTube video is useless because of the compression and processing the file goes through. IF the person doing the review is someone you trust then their impressions of the sound would count but you won't be able to make any real assessments based on the sound you hear.

Second mics are not like lenses. A shotgun doesn't hear more or pick up at a greater distance than a wider pattern mic, it rejects more of the off axis sounds.

That said I would agree that if you are recording as it sounds like you are, direct in to a camcorder/DSLR that only has a 1/8" "mic" jack, you are probably better off with the VMP and even if you had a preamp etc to get a better mic into the camcorder you would probably not hear the difference in the recordings because of the quality of the audio input/ recording on the camcorder. Plus the VMP is designed for use with these kinds of devices and so is probably going to actually be a better choice.

The other upside is that even when you do some project where you want to use dual system so that the sound is better the VMP will be useful for getting a better guide track on the video. As things go the VMP is not a bad choice, and probably the best choice for the kind of work you describe.

BTW I have been the sound guy on a number of run and gun doc shoots and it really isn't that big a hassle to get actually decent sound. The argument that you don't have time for a sound guy or things just move too fast is really an excuse to support your not wanting to do it. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong but it is a choice based on your preference and or budget not an unfortunate necessity because it's not possible to do it with a sound person. Now you may have some scenario I haven't thought of where indeed it isn't possible to have a sound person but I doubt it. You do need someone who knows how to work light and fast but there are a ton of much more experienced production recordists than I and if I can do it ...

Again the above is not a "shame on you" since IMO it is a perfectly legit argument to say you want to work as a One Man Band, but it is a choice. It might even be the better choice.
 
henryqiu said:
There is a comparison on YouTube:

By the comparison, the AT is technically slightly better whereas Rode VMP is obviously more convenient to use as an on-cam mic for DSLR. In real-world applications, the differences in sound quality between the two mics are likely too subtle to be noticeable. Whichever is more convenient is probably a better choice to you.

However, it looks like you have been recording 875r into a recorder not because you choose to, but because you have had no other option. So you probably don't a camera with XLR support. If that's the case, here's the question that only you can answer for yourself: do you want to pay the price of a new mic just for the level of mobility you wish to have?

Under $400 it's unlikely that you can find a better sounding mic that is significantly better than Rode VMP. You'll need at least $600 to get something like Rode NTG-3. NTG-3 picks up sound much farther away, so even if mounted on cam, it's a lot better than VMP.
Click to expand...

Thanks.
 
Noiz2 said:
We should clear up a few things. First any comparison of sound quality on a YouTube video is useless because of the compression and processing the file goes through. IF the person doing the review is someone you trust then their impressions of the sound would count but you won't be able to make any real assessments based on the sound you hear.

Second mics are not like lenses. A shotgun doesn't hear more or pick up at a greater distance than a wider pattern mic, it rejects more of the off axis sounds.

That said I would agree that if you are recording as it sounds like you are, direct in to a camcorder/DSLR that only has a 1/8" "mic" jack, you are probably better off with the VMP and even if you had a preamp etc to get a better mic into the camcorder you would probably not hear the difference in the recordings because of the quality of the audio input/ recording on the camcorder. Plus the VMP is designed for use with these kinds of devices and so is probably going to actually be a better choice.

The other upside is that even when you do some project where you want to use dual system so that the sound is better the VMP will be useful for getting a better guide track on the video. As things go the VMP is not a bad choice, and probably the best choice for the kind of work you describe.

BTW I have been the sound guy on a number of run and gun doc shoots and it really isn't that big a hassle to get actually decent sound. The argument that you don't have time for a sound guy or things just move too fast is really an excuse to support your not wanting to do it. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong but it is a choice based on your preference and or budget not an unfortunate necessity because it's not possible to do it with a sound person. Now you may have some scenario I haven't thought of where indeed it isn't possible to have a sound person but I doubt it. You do need someone who knows how to work light and fast but there are a ton of much more experienced production recordists than I and if I can do it ...

Again the above is not a "shame on you" since IMO it is a perfectly legit argument to say you want to work as a One Man Band, but it is a choice. It might even be the better choice.
Click to expand...

Thanks.
I'm well aware of the benefit of having a sound man. On some situations I cannot possibly afford it.
 
I picked up a used at4073a from LSC about twenty months ago for $ 199. Its worked steadily with my producing partner for most of that time and sounds very good. Mkh416,ntg-3, 4073a are all high quality mics that will give similar results and are somewhat interchangeable. 200-400$ can usually get you a 4073 if you look hard enough. In many circumstances an on camera mic is the only viable option and as long the shooter understands the compromises and manages their expectations it is a solution. I'm not a sound mixer and this isn't original but it is funny that some shooters will put the cheapest mic they can find on a fifty thousand dollar rig and expect that to be the best solution to every situation.
 
Joshua_G said:
Thanks.
I'm well aware of the benefit of having a sound man. On some situations I cannot possibly afford it.
Click to expand...

Yes well there is that... ;~)

In general the problem with anyone saying you need to do X is that there is now a huge spectrum of delivery requirements and you can often hit that target in various ways.

My general orientation is that film is a team sport and if you are not playing with a team you are at a severe disadvantage. That said I am doing a bunch of little videos to try some things out and practice and I am doing it as a OMB. But that fit's my particular "delivery requirements". If I looked I could probably find a few folks who wanted to play also but for this it's almost more work than it's worth.

This comes up a lot on this board since often people are not specific of where they need to end up and people give advice based on where they would want to end up. I'm as guilty as anyone, though I think I have learned to be a bit better over time.

This is kind of a general note to posters who ask for advice and then get ticked off when they hear things like "hire a professional" or "you NEED to do double system with a dedicated sound person". It's not "bad" advice, it just may not be the best advice to get you to where YOU need to be.

There was a guy a few years ago who was winning awards and making a name because of a feature doc he made in iMovie. There is no way that anybody with any sense would recommend that workflow for a feature. He was aiming at a specific final and then I'm sure there were a bunch of growing pains when it became a hit and stuff needed to be upgraded but it probably wouldn't have happened at all if he didn't do the first version on iMovie.

So along with understanding that most advice is pretty good here, just maybe not for your needs, one needs to also understand that just because someone got away with it once means it's a good way to work. El Mariachi used to get brought up a lot as a "feature made for $5,000". Actually it was "shot" for $5,000. By the time things got reworked and the sound redone for the version that everyone saw in the theatres the budget was a few million.

The requirements for YouTube, broadcast, indi film festivals, cable, documentaries, and commercially released feature films are radically different. You can get in a lot of trouble using the wrong workflow. Whether that is going big Hollywood on a indi short ( I worked on one that dropped over $30,000 on a short that maybe a few hundred people ever saw), or using a YouTube workflow on a feature you are trying to sell.

It is critical to know where you are going Before you start.

I mention this in this thread because the OP does seem to have a good grasp of what his actual requirements are and so unlike some other threads this one didn't go off the rails in a debate over workflow.
It's refreshing!
 
There is no magic mic. The reason why a boom op/mixer/location sound is essential because somebody(s) needs to get in close to capture clear audio. In some special situations, yes, you can do it all by yourself. Also, if your expectations are low (e.g., news gathering, reality, etc.) or in a very controlled environment (seated interview, sound-treated room) you can position the mic and the subject and set it and leave it. All good sound guys will tell you a well-positioned cheap mic will sound better than a poorly-positioned expensive mic. Unfortunately, if you are a one-man-band, the mic on your camera will be poorly-positioned in most cases. (The exception is if the subject is within a couple feet and aims his mouth directly along the axis of the microphone at all times. Then it will sound pretty good).
 
Again, thanks all of you for your replies.

I wonder if some people reply without reading what I wrote.
I wrote:
"First, I'm well aware of the poor sound coming from an on-camera microphone, whatever microphone is used.
Yet, for a one-man Run n' Gun in uncontrolled documentary situations, at times there is no other option."
And:
"I'm well aware of the benefit of having a sound man. On some situations I cannot possibly afford it."

It's been about 50 years since I first worked in movies, including features, documentaries and TV.
 
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