Oktava MK012. Thumbs up or down as a hypercardiod?

[paulears]

Ribbon mics sound different because they're fig-8s, so in a venue they capture more of the acoustics of the space, so tend to sound bigger. In a concert situation they produce plenty of stereo information just because of the rear pickup. All the larger diaphragm mics tend to have their own character - and some sound better for it, others a bit worse. I always regret selling my DPA 4001s, and they were the best microphones I ever had for orchestral and choral work. That said, even budget mics sound pretty good in the right place, in the right venue. I suppose many people listen and make their own minds up - smaller elements tend to be a bit clinical - whereas the bigger ones in the same place sound warmer. Select ones that will work best for the building.

 

[Noiz2]

What? I thought this was a music recording forum! Thanks Luis for getting it back on track.

Danny, A friend of mine who uses Schoeps on a regular basis bought a pair of Oktava's for backup when she went to record in Morocco because she thought they sounded similar enough to swap out for each other. The Oktava's are not as hot, translates to slightly more self noise, but otherwise are very similar to Schoeps.

The story I heard is that at the end of WWII the Schoeps factory was in what became East Germany and the engineers and designers fled to the west. The factory and designes were all left behind and Oktava is essentially a late 30's early 40's Schoeps design. Sounds good anyway.

As to outdoor work. I do mostly FX recording and I use a pair of Cardioid Oktava's for that. I also took them out of that setup and pretty regularly used them for chamber music concert recordings. I love the sound of them. Would I like Schoeps better? Probably but I don't think I would like it better enough for me to spring the extra money. Plus as I said I do a lot of FX recording and it's nice to know that it won't cost the price of a used car if disaster struck and I had to replace them.

My experience with Schoeps is that they have the same "problems" with handling and wind as the Oktava's do. I think you hear less about it because folks springing for Schoeps generally know how to handle a sensitive mic. Folks who come from throwing an SM58 around will have a lot of problems with a mic like the Oktava.

The Mods are supposed to open up the mic a bit but also make it more sensitive to wind issues. They might be worth it? I was going to get another pair and have them moded and see if it made a difference but the crashing economy got in the way so haven't done it yet.


phudsontx. What screws are you taking out??? Just say no. This is not a problem talked about in the many threads I have read on modifying the mics and there is no other reason to be taking screws out. The capsule threads on and off, and I do that on a regular basis but you couldn't be rethreading that. And again if your stripping any threads on the mic I would look first to the guy with the screwdriver and ask him to put it down and step away from my mic.

 

[hazmattt]

My MK012 works great while capturing dialogue or FX in interior locations. With a BBG, I rarely hear any wind noise when correctly panning/tilting/rotating the boom where it needs to be. It's the same for any mic, really.

It all comes down to signal flow and handling from there.

 

[Rippie]

Yes, of course a hyper-cardioid can never replace a "shotgun" microphone when used outdoors.
But when used indoors, a "shotgun" mic is rarely as effective as a hypercardioid (Oktava or otherwise.)

If you had to explain when you use a shotgun and when to use a hyper as a very general rule I would agree with this.

The reality is there are plenty of times a hyper is the best choice outside, just as there are many times (you say rarely) where a shotgun inside is
also the better choice.
Just as an example of my own experience back in Dec I picked up a Schoeps CMIT shotgun mic. I can say I have been almost exclusively using it
as my interior mic since then including even a job I finished an hour ago.

Once again as a VERY general rule I agree with you, but as we all know things just arent that cut and dry in the real world.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

phudsontx. What screws are you taking out??? Just say no. This is not a problem talked about in the many threads I have read on modifying the mics and there is no other reason to be taking screws out. The capsule threads on and off, and I do that on a regular basis but you couldn't be rethreading that. And again if your stripping any threads on the mic I would look first to the guy with the screwdriver and ask him to put it down and step away from my mic.

I bought a cheap mic stand, and when I put my Oktava on it, with the 'clamp bracket', it feels sort of like the difference between 'englsh/american' measurements and some 'metric' equivalent. Is there an 'international' standard on this or is there a difference between 'metric' mounts and US mounts?

 

[Richard Crowley]

Once again as a VERY general rule I agree with you, but as we all know things just arent that cut and dry in the real world.

Indeed, but it seemed extraneous at that moment to get into the gritty details.

The CMIT is not your typical line-gradient "shotgun" mic design, is it?
I am kicking myself for not buying one when they first came out (at significantly less $$$$ than today).

 

[swoopie]

Ribbon mics sound different because they're fig-8s

Most of the older ones were bi-directional, but even just as far back as the 60s you could find them with super-cardioid patterns (the Shure SM33 for instance). And a lot of the newer ones are cardioid too. Beyerdynamic, Fostex, AEA, Silvia, Telefunken all have ribbon models with cardioid or super cardioid patterns. The only one I've heard though was the old Shure SM33, and it actually sounded darn good. Johnny Carson used one as his desk mic for years and years.

The Oktava's are not as hot, translates to slightly more self noise...

Actually, they're quite hot for a small diaphragm mic and produce very little noise on their own. Even running a pair of DBX160 compressors on mine when stereo mic'ing produces almost no noise at all and I've got the recordings to prove it. I'm faking playing to a recording here, but the studio recording was with a pair of compressed Oktava MK012 mics with no NR added.

Folks who come from throwing an SM58 around will have a lot of problems with a mic like the Oktava.

Why would anyone in their right mind be handholding ANY condenser mic? None of them are meant to be held like an SM58 or other dynamic mics. I wouldn't think of using a large diaphragm condenser without a shock mount, but while you can get away from using a shock mount with a small diaphragm condenser like this little Oktava, it still needs to be kept on a stand (hopefully without some dope touching the stand!)

I bought a cheap mic stand, and when I put my Oktava on it, with the 'clamp bracket', it feels sort of like the difference between 'englsh/american' measurements and some 'metric' equivalent. Is there an 'international' standard on this or is there a difference between 'metric' mounts and US mounts?

That's right. It should have come with an adapter ring if you bought it in America. Both of mine did.

 

[ullanta]

The Oktava's are not as hot, translates to slightly more self noise, but otherwise are very similar to Schoeps.

..... I also took them out of that setup and pretty regularly used them for chamber music concert recordings. I love the sound of them. Would I like Schoeps better? Probably but I don't think I would like it better enough for me to spring the extra money.

Don't be too sure... the Schoeps CMCs actually sound a bit brittle compared to the Oktavas. Some call that more "precise", but I and countless musicians I've made listen to comparisons actually prefer the Oktavas in at least many chamber music situations. My Oktavas anyway... I have one pair I feel is "magical"... we all have our magic mics, don't we?

But in general...the Oktavas are a little flatter and more flattering and more forgiving than the Schoeps. Aside from my mobile kits, I am "resident" in one hall that has 8 hanging Schoeps from before my time... I'd LOVE to have a budget to replace them with Oktavas!

 

[ullanta]

Ribbon mics sound different because they're fig-8s, so in a venue they capture more of the acoustics of the space, so tend to sound bigger. In a concert situation they produce plenty of stereo information just because of the rear pickup. All the larger diaphragm mics tend to have their own character - and some sound better for it, others a bit worse. I always regret selling my DPA 4001s, and they were the best microphones I ever had for orchestral and choral work. That said, even budget mics sound pretty good in the right place, in the right venue. I suppose many people listen and make their own minds up - smaller elements tend to be a bit clinical - whereas the bigger ones in the same place sound warmer. Select ones that will work best for the building.

Umm... ribbon mics sound different because they transduce sound into an electric signal in a completely different way, which changes both the frequency response and the smoothness of the sound at different frequencies... one might even describe them as having a bit of built in hysteresis to smooth out the high frequencies.

A figure eight mic provides NO stereo information, nor does any mic that generates a single output signal. "Stereo information" is a result of spatio-temporal and signal intensity differences between two or more mics.

SDCs can sound warm or clinical... and the Oktavas tend to be on the warmer side (especially the omnis)...

 

[ullanta]

Why would anyone in their right mind be handholding ANY condenser mic? None of them are meant to be held like an SM58 or other dynamic mics. I wouldn't think of using a large diaphragm condenser without a shock mount, but while you can get away from using a shock mount with a small diaphragm condenser like this little Oktava, it still needs to be kept on a stand (hopefully without some dope touching the stand!)

I know what you're saying in general, but keep in mind there is a whole world of handheld condenser mics for stage performances, available from pretty much every stage mic manufacturer....

 

[swoopie]

keep in mind there is a whole world of handheld condenser mics for stage performances

True, they've come out with several the last couple of years, none of which I've heard. But up until just a few years ago, there were hardly any condenser mics you could hold without regretting it.

ribbon mics sound different because

Most of the ribbon mics I've used have been very old classic types, and most of them all had a very flat response with a a few notable exceptions. I think that's what most people think of when you mention a ribbon mic, is something that sounds darn near like a referrence mic. Obviously something like the newer Boyers don't sound flat at all, but if you ever heard an RCA 77 or 44 etc., they really are very flat sounding.

A figure eight mic provides NO stereo information

I'll tell you something else about the older figure 8 mics is that most of them were produced a stronger signal on one side of the mic than the other. People need to keep that in mind before they go shopping for something as expensive as an RCA 77. It may not do exactly what they think it will. Also, I had a BK-11 I mentioned in another thread, and like most ribbon mics, it was outstanding at rejecting off axis sounds. Best I ever heard when it came to that.

 

[Rippie]

Don't be too sure... the Schoeps CMCs actually sound a bit brittle compared to the Oktavas.

In all my years doing this I don't think Ive ever heard someone refer to a Schoeps as "brittle".

 

[Postmaster]

T
So my follow-up question: With good isolation (Rycote BBG, Windjammer, K-Tek Shockmount)

I use the Rycote Lyra mount - best insulation you can buy for money IMHO - never had any handling noise problems with the Octava or Rode. With that mount you can lower handling noise at about an octave.

I have the complete kit with zeppelin and everything, highly recommended.

http://www.rycote.com/products/full_windshield_kit/

best, Frank

 

[swoopie]

In all my years doing this I don't think Ive ever heard someone refer to a Schoeps as "brittle".

He didn't say it was brittle. He said it was brittle compared with the Oktava, and I imagine that's true since I often end up adding a tiny bit of top-end to many of the recordings I've done with the Oktavas, and I generally have to cut the mids a snudge too, especially when mic'ing close.

 

[Rippie]

He didn't say it was brittle. He said it was brittle compared with the Oktava, and I imagine that's true since I often end up adding a tiny bit of top-end to many of the recordings I've done with the Oktavas, and I generally have to cut the mids a snudge too, especially when mic'ing close.

Actually he did say it was brittle.
"the Schoeps CMCs actually sound a bit brittle compared to the Oktavas"

Whether or not it was brittle compared to another mic or on its own.
brittle is brittle.


By you saying right now that you have to add a bit of high end into your Oktava recordings..
I think brittle should have simply been changed to "more bright compared to the Oktava".

Comparing brightness between mic's could simply be a matter of taste to which one you prefer.
I think its safe to say a brittle sounding mic would never be a desirable trait.

 

[swoopie]

When people say "brittle" concerning a mic, they mean it's a little brighter than normal. It can be a very desirable trait. I have an inexpensive MXL V63M I keep around just for that reason. If I have someone with a muddy voice, it clears them up very nicely. It's the only mic Ray Romano should ever use.

 

[davefisk]

I normally wouldn't chime in with my opinion on something, but I've used these Oktava mics...and maybe it's because I'm spoiled because I've only really used Neumann 150's or Schoeps mics, but I've never liked the Oktava mics. I've found them too inconsistent, prone to handling noise, and very "boomy" in terms of how they pick up low end. I had a pair and was so unhappy with them I just gave them away. I've used the supposedly "matched" and "modded" Oktava's, and still didn't like them compared other mics out there. Audio Technica makes some great affordable small diaphragm condensors that I liked, and on the high end there are the Neumann's, Schoeps, and DPA.

 

[Rippie]

When people say "brittle" concerning a mic, they mean it's a little brighter than normal. It can be a very desirable trait. I have an inexpensive MXL V63M I keep around just for that reason. If I have someone with a muddy voice, it clears them up very nicely. It's the only mic Ray Romano should ever use.

I am honestly not trying to nitpick the terminology here but once again speaking for myself
I have NEVER heard someone comment on a mic being "brittle" and meaning that in a good way or that it simply was a "little brighter than normal".


Brittle by the very definition is almost purely negative.
I know if someone told me a mic was brittle I would instantly think it was harsh, lack of bottom end (thin), unpleasant.

Personally I dont even think the CMCx/41 is a bright mic. It's pretty neutral sounding.

Sorry once again..I know I might be nitpicking and I don't mean to so I'll end it here.

 

[Noiz2]

I bought a cheap mic stand, and when I put my Oktava on it, with the 'clamp bracket', it feels sort of like the difference between 'englsh/american' measurements and some 'metric' equivalent. Is there an 'international' standard on this or is there a difference between 'metric' mounts and US mounts?

I would assume that european countries are using a metric thread? But that may just be sloppy tolerances. I lot of mic clips have a loose fit, it's one reason most stands have that ring on the threads so you can tighten them up. Truthfully I haven't noticed the clips being any looser than any other clips but then I only use those clips when I'm doing the concert recordings.

 

[Noiz2]

Most of the older ones were bi-directional, but even just as far back as the 60s you could find them with super-cardioid patterns (the Shure SM33 for instance). And a lot of the newer ones are cardioid too. Beyerdynamic, Fostex, AEA, Silvia, Telefunken all have ribbon models with cardioid or super cardioid patterns. The only one I've heard though was the old Shure SM33, and it actually sounded darn good. Johnny Carson used one as his desk mic for years and years.

This is a bit (like way) OT. We are talking about production sound recording not studio music recording. Nobody is going to stick a ribbon mic on a boom and try to do production work with it.

Actually, they're quite hot for a small diaphragm mic and produce very little noise on their own. Even running a pair of DBX160 compressors on mine when stereo mic'ing produces almost no noise at all and I've got the recordings to prove it. I'm faking playing to a recording here, but the studio recording was with a pair of compressed Oktava MK012 mics with no NR added.

I did not say they were not hot just not as hot as the Schoeps (at least the ones I have used). Same with the noise, they arev very quiet but I was comparing to the Schoeps and the Schoeps are a touch quieter. It may even be the same thing since if you record slightly lower (because the mic is slightly hotter) you will have slightly less noise.

Why would anyone in their right mind be handholding ANY condenser mic? None of them are meant to be held like an SM58 or other dynamic mics. I wouldn't think of using a large diaphragm condenser without a shock mount, but while you can get away from using a shock mount with a small diaphragm condenser like this little Oktava, it still needs to be kept on a stand (hopefully without some dope touching the stand!)

Again I did NOT say that people were hand holding the Oktava. You seem to be confused about what kind of recording we are talking about, this is production recording. A shotgun or Hyper (or maybe cardioid) on a boom with a shock mount. BUT it is also DVXUser and for a lot of new micro budget filmmakers there only real experience with a microphone is with a hand held like the SM58. They will often handle a small condenser as if it were as immune to handling noise as what they know and then complain about it. That is the point. When you read complaints you need to take into account who is making them and how experienced they are.

That's right. It should have come with an adapter ring if you bought it in America. Both of mine did.

I thin your talking about the adapter from the small threads (common in Europe) to the larger threads common on american mic stands. I think he is talking about a lose fit using the larger style threads.