I think this sums it up perfectly. At the end of the day, we're all tech heads and it's not easy to avoid being seduced by new, great looking imagery. For the vast majority of our clients, we distribute online or to DVD, so even our HPX300 is borderline over-kill. It's poor business to buy outside of what your clients want, in my humble opinion.
OK, so Scarlet is actually S35. This is big.
- Thread starter bhdfield
- Start date
I think this sums it up perfectly. At the end of the day, we're all tech heads and it's not easy to avoid being seduced by new, great looking imagery. For the vast majority of our clients, we distribute online or to DVD, so even our HPX300 is borderline over-kill. It's poor business to buy outside of what your clients want, in my humble opinion.
metrospace
Active member
The seduction is very persuasive, tho
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biginvegas
Well-known member
seriously this needs to be slapped on the foreheads of many a filmmaker, thanks for the info...
BrianMurphy
Veteran
Dustylense and David W. Jones along with a friend/fellow shooter have all made a great deal of sense. I was a casual member of the Red group for quite a while and followed with great interest especially in the past month So when I was about to pull the trigger on an FS100 I held off when Jim made the November Canon challenge announcement. The Scarlet looks to be a sensational tool but not the one for me. I am a run and gun one man band for most of my work, the cost of upgrading everything in my post suite would be out of the park. Having been a Panasonic person for the past two cameras and moving to Sony will be a pain enough not being able to move the little things like batteries, zoom controls etc forward but having to toss it all out and start over is just too pricey and for an image level that I just don't need right now and probably not ever at my age. An F100 and Pix220 are on the books in the next month.
Kindredmachine
Well-known member
Well said. Ironically, it looks like we'll still be using the AF-100 on a couple of projects even after our Scarlet shows up simply because of the memory issue with RED's SSD cards. We might pick up 2-3 of those 64GB mags at first but those things are crazy $$$. I do wish there was a more reasonable media option which is something that really attracted me to AVCHD! And the 40-minute battery is also frustrating. I think I'm going to fall in love with the scarlet cam for "cinema work" but for some applications it's not going to be practical. Here's hoping that Panny takes a note from this and shows up to the game soon.
KyleProhaska
Veteran
I agree with most of what's said here but I think some things are being forgotten. Namely, nobody said you have to shoot 4k so shooting amazing 2k with that sensor and HDRx would be fantastic. Also, regarding the workflow and even clients who might not be used to it, for them (if what you're saying is true) they would likely be totally satisfied with simple 1080p Prorez Proxies to complete the entire project. Great proxies from the RED are nothing to snub your nose at, and for them it's still an amazing image.
The cost of the camera though is definitely always a factor, and whether or not clients can afford it well...that's not for me to say. I think because this thing is so much cheaper for us the shooter, that the rates to shoot RED should actually go down a little. But that's me.
I'm going to wait a little bit before maybe hopping on the bandwagon, and at first I thought I would dump my AF100 like a sack of potatoes, but now I think I realize that it has its use and I would do well to keep it. A proper 1080p cam with XLR inputs and internal ND comes in handy, ya dig?
Happy shooting...2012 is going to very interesting.
The cost of the camera though is definitely always a factor, and whether or not clients can afford it well...that's not for me to say. I think because this thing is so much cheaper for us the shooter, that the rates to shoot RED should actually go down a little. But that's me.
I'm going to wait a little bit before maybe hopping on the bandwagon, and at first I thought I would dump my AF100 like a sack of potatoes, but now I think I realize that it has its use and I would do well to keep it. A proper 1080p cam with XLR inputs and internal ND comes in handy, ya dig?
Happy shooting...2012 is going to very interesting.
heavyG
Underwater Giraffe Member
It's fully 99% a perception thing - and a myth that's perpetuated by greedy post houses on unsuspecting / unknowing ad agency producers.
I know that RED workflow doesn't have to be complicated, but sometimes the client takes the easy way because they just don't know how to argue with a post house who is giving them a story of pain.
To wit: When the HVX first came out I won a job to shoot a commercial on Everest in Nepal. Agency spec was for SD 4:3, maybe even a 16:9 letterbox - and it was going to be shown during the Beijing Olympics on the main National network here in Canada. The post house was adamant that it had to be SD footage (they were saddled with expensive SD legacy equipment), and that HD would cost 'loads' more. I convinced the team that I could shoot in HD, and convert the files to SD for the post house… At the end of the first shoot day I did a rough edit of the footage on my laptop beside the fire in a shack near Base Camp on FCP in HD and showed the agency. I could see a light go on above the producers head - she was getting shafted by the post house! The job was edited / aired in HD.
Here we are with RED footage (what after 3-4 years) and people still think it's a pain in the *ss. So I get your point about 1080p prores proxies, but some clients still probably won't go for it.
[video]http://heavygfilms.com/vault/MASTER_60E_6545.mpg[/video]
[video]http://heavygfilms.com/vault/ONE_TOUCH___Mt._Everest_.mov[/video]
Can only find low res versions...
As for keeping the AF100 - yes sir, right along with HVX200 that went out on a job last week.
gustavo_viral
Active member
Adding... an iMac with FW800 could be used for red's post production?
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
With Adobe Premiere CS 5.5 it is ridiculously easy.
snowleopard
Well-known member
Agree with those who say this Scarlet is more like Epic-S. I also now feel Epic-S is no more. And the fixed lens Scarlet is no more.
Agree that Scarlet and the AF100 are apples and oranges. I actually think this announcement breathes more life into the AF100, FS100, and Canon 5D shooters.
As one who works in broadcast television and has for several years, while acquisition on high end shows will move from film to cameras like Epic, or Scarlet, delivery to your HDTV will be 1080 for some time, and a great deal of what you see on TV - much cable, spots, docs, eng, reality, local, etc. - will be shot at 1080 and most broadcasters will accept it, if the content is decent. Ask me again about 4k television in about the year 2016.
Agree that Scarlet and the AF100 are apples and oranges. I actually think this announcement breathes more life into the AF100, FS100, and Canon 5D shooters.
As one who works in broadcast television and has for several years, while acquisition on high end shows will move from film to cameras like Epic, or Scarlet, delivery to your HDTV will be 1080 for some time, and a great deal of what you see on TV - much cable, spots, docs, eng, reality, local, etc. - will be shot at 1080 and most broadcasters will accept it, if the content is decent. Ask me again about 4k television in about the year 2016.
Shooter
Veteran
FWIW: Something thing that does "bite".... is the huge amount of download time at the end of the shoot day.
It is significantly longer than what one is used to with an AF100
It adds a cost that must be factored in to the production. It does "frustrate" many producers I know. (overtime ,wrap , gear rental and back ups etc)
PerroneFord
Deals in Lead
Some interesting thoughts here on the Scarlet. I'll toss in my issue, and see how people digest it. I've been posting REDCode for about 3 years now. I cut on AVID and they announced Epic support yesterday. For me, I make most of my money shooting stills. I currently own 3 Nikon DSLRs, one Canon DSLR, one Nikon Film camera, and one Canon Film camera. I also own A DVX100, and a Sony EX1. For me, I was hoping to be able to carry a SINGLE camera to shoot both stills and video. Scarlet promised it, and it comes SO close for me. It offers a frame size fairly close to my best DSLR. It trumps my EX1 for video in nearly every way. The only thing missing from the Scarlet toolkit for me, is the ISO performance. Not an issue for video, but certainly an issue for stills. As a sports photographer, I need that high ISO performance. I am dying now cleaning up my ISO 1000 stuff. The Nikon D3s was on my list to buy this month. So for those who do hybrid work, meaning both stills and video, the Scarlet has wonderful appeal. It's a 12fps DSLR with resolution similar to a 7D. Suitable for most commercial work. And for sports guys shooting in daylight, it's 12fps. We all know what it brings to the video game. The AF100 and similar cameras don't offer me what I want. I want the codec, RAW preferably. I want the option of a PL mount. I WANT to be able to shoot at more than 1080p and am willing to pay for it. But now I am between a rock and a hard place. It looks like I will have to pony up for both a stills camera to get my ISO performance, and for a video camera to get the video performance I need. I understand those who are afraid of posting RED. To me, it's more like posting film, than posting from a consumer camcorder. And that's ok with me. You don't have to use a REDRocket because you don't have to cut at 4K. In fact, I think that's rather silly. I cut at about 35Mbps 1080p. It's funny to think that my proxies for cutting RED are equivalent to my masters coming from the EX1 or similar cameras. Everyone will need to make their own choices here. For me, the Scarlet is my next "10 year" camera. No, the market isn't ready for 4K broadcast. Maybe we'll get there in 5-10 years. And the Scarlet will have long since paid for itself by then. You pay your money, and you take your choice.
metrospace
Active member
.
As for keeping the AF100 - yes sir, right along with HVX200 that went out on a job last week.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking I would sell my AF100 if I went the Scarlet route, but maybe not - I too shot a job on my HVX200 just two days ago.
As for keeping the AF100 - yes sir, right along with HVX200 that went out on a job last week.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking I would sell my AF100 if I went the Scarlet route, but maybe not - I too shot a job on my HVX200 just two days ago.
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
What about the 1DX? I can't find enough information on it yet, but from what I have read, it sounds like an interesting hybrid for people who NEED a good photography side.
David W. Jones
Veteran
I was looking over our two new camera offerings with my business eye, and you know Jim really has a keen perspective when it comes to business.
I think he played his cards well with the Scarlet release. I also think that if Canon had a forward thinking person like myself in their employment, they wouldn't have missed the mark. If they had priced the new Canon C300 at $6K, the shoe might have been on the other foot, as Canon would have sold the Pajesus out of it. I also think Canon missed the boat on the lens front. They could have done an affordable re-issue of the K-35 series and offered the set for $10K, and you and I both know we would all buy a set of T1.3 PL lenses less expensive and faster than Red or Zeiss CP.2.
The next camera I purchase... It will likely have a S35 size sensor, 10bit, Uncompressed/Raw style compression, PL mount, full size XLR audio inputs, $7K max.
I think he played his cards well with the Scarlet release. I also think that if Canon had a forward thinking person like myself in their employment, they wouldn't have missed the mark. If they had priced the new Canon C300 at $6K, the shoe might have been on the other foot, as Canon would have sold the Pajesus out of it. I also think Canon missed the boat on the lens front. They could have done an affordable re-issue of the K-35 series and offered the set for $10K, and you and I both know we would all buy a set of T1.3 PL lenses less expensive and faster than Red or Zeiss CP.2.
The next camera I purchase... It will likely have a S35 size sensor, 10bit, Uncompressed/Raw style compression, PL mount, full size XLR audio inputs, $7K max.
Kindredmachine
Well-known member
Exactly! I'll be shooting mostly 1080 with it and a 64BG card gives you 55 minutes with 4:1 compression. Sounds like P2 right?