Official: HDMI 1080 IS INTERLACED ONLY

Peter,

When Zephyrnoid started a rant with projections of conspiracies by evil corporations engaged in "suckering" unsuspecting trust fund babies, continuing with a conjured world conquest attempt by way of a proprietary display connector, and ending the rant with references to rolling shutter -- I thought perhaps there might be something wrong. Perhaps a manic episode, maybe a bad reaction to prescription drugs combined with undercooked food, or perhaps a moderately severe personal crisis manifested as a brief disconnect from reality. But then ... I remembered his references to Thunderbolt as the path to either salvation or world domination, and then I knew this was truly a serious breakdown in normal thought processes. No rational human being gives Thunderbolt that much credit.

I believe the polite response in such situations is to simply ignore it, in the charitable expectation that this mood or chemical imbalance will soon pass.

-- Bob Elkind
 
Peter J. DeCrescenzo said:
Confused by this. A D800 is $3K US.

An external recorder appropriate for use with the D800 can cost as little as $1K US (Ninja), plus the cost of relatively inexpensive HDDs, or if you need it, more expensive SSDs.

The above combination yields 8-bit (in a 10-bit file) 4:2:2 recorded at up to >200 megabits/sec., and doesn't total anywhere near $8K US.

If you were factoring-in the costs of other typical/options, such as add-on EVF/monitors, rigs, etc., then yes, that stuff adds up quickly. But these items are not unique to DSLR video production.

Were you referring to something else? Cheers.
Click to expand...

lenses :)
 
eteam said:
Peter,

When Zephyrnoid started a rant with projections of conspiracies by evil corporations engaged in "suckering" unsuspecting trust fund babies, continuing with a conjured world conquest attempt by way of a proprietary display connector, and ending the rant with references to rolling shutter -- I thought perhaps there might be something wrong. Perhaps a manic episode, maybe a bad reaction to prescription drugs combined with undercooked food, or perhaps a moderately severe personal crisis manifested as a brief disconnect from reality. But then ... I remembered his references to Thunderbolt as the path to either salvation or world domination, and then I knew this was truly a serious breakdown in normal thought processes. No rational human being gives Thunderbolt that much credit.

I believe the polite response in such situations is to simply ignore it, in the charitable expectation that this mood or chemical imbalance will soon pass.

-- Bob Elkind
Click to expand...
It's my Bipolar dysfunctionality in combination with my manic depressive disorder and yup! forgot my meds for the past two weeks!
Forgive me is all that I ask.
"Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you"
 
Zephyrnoid said:
It's my Bipolar dysfunctionality
Click to expand...
There's a lot of that going around...

in combination with my manic depressive disorder
Click to expand...
Quite understandable when dealing with the likes of us...

and yup! forgot my meds for the past two weeks!
Click to expand...
Happens to me, all the time.

Forgive me is all that I ask.
Click to expand...
I want to, I'm trying, I'm really trying... but... but... there's that Thunderbolt thing...

-- Bob Elkind :smile:
 
eteam said:
Peter,

When Zephyrnoid started a rant with projections of conspiracies by evil corporations engaged in "suckering" unsuspecting trust fund babies, continuing with a conjured world conquest attempt by way of a proprietary display connector, and ending the rant with references to rolling shutter -- I thought perhaps there might be something wrong. Perhaps a manic episode, maybe a bad reaction to prescription drugs combined with undercooked food, or perhaps a moderately severe personal crisis manifested as a brief disconnect from reality. But then ... I remembered his references to Thunderbolt as the path to either salvation or world domination, and then I knew this was truly a serious breakdown in normal thought processes. No rational human being gives Thunderbolt that much credit.

I believe the polite response in such situations is to simply ignore it, in the charitable expectation that this mood or chemical imbalance will soon pass.

-- Bob Elkind
Click to expand...

Not to seem at all slighted, but rather wishing to underscore why I rant about how manufacturers dick the sill arse 'beta' customers and eager beaver videographers around... have a read at this other interface thread. I'm not the only one that's noticed the problem and so my lamentation is ... why can't all our interfaces just "Get along" ?
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...700-4K&p=1986118518&viewfull=1#post1986118518
 
Nikon France has a video presentation on the D4 the only think of interest here is a brief shot of the D4 at 5:05 which at first glance appears hooked up to a Sound Devices Pix 240 but when I stop the video to get a better look you can see that the camera in the frame displays a tight shot on the subject but the shot in the Pix is a wide and the camera in frame only has a mic plugged into it and nothing in the HDMI out. The Pix 240 does have an HDMI cable running into it and it would be nice if they were saying that the video was recorded on the PIX but my French isn't good enough to decipher. Just fodder for speculation since I am pondering this same configuration.

http://vimeo.com/39402209 frame in question is at 5:05 and the last minute describes the video functions including the uncompressed out.
 
grecner said:
Yes, great news. I am still wondering why a new firmware was needed to record native 1080p, but OK, at least it works now.
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Most likely the firmware update provides changes to the Ninja's EDID table. The changes enable D800 (and D4, presumably) to recognise Ninja's capability for handling 4:2:2 1080p24/25/30 input signal formats from the D4/D800 HDMI output. There may be more than this, but this one item seems to be the first and foremost "sticking point" for D4/D800 "native" Live Movie output.

-- Bob Elkind
 
resonance_image said:
Nikon France has a video presentation on the D4 the only think of interest here is a brief shot of the D4 at 5:05 which at first glance appears hooked up to a Sound Devices Pix 240 but when I stop the video to get a better look you can see that the camera in the frame displays a tight shot on the subject but the shot in the Pix is a wide and the camera in frame only has a mic plugged into it and nothing in the HDMI out. The Pix 240 does have an HDMI cable running into it and it would be nice if they were saying that the video was recorded on the PIX but my French isn't good enough to decipher. Just fodder for speculation since I am pondering this same configuration.

http://vimeo.com/39402209 frame in question is at 5:05 and the last minute describes the video functions including the uncompressed out.
Click to expand...

They are not saying that it was recorded on the PIX. The guy said that he was asked to produce this video with two D4s and familiarized himself with them pretty quickly and easily. He also mentions the importance of the uncompressed HDMI output but did not confirm that he used it in this video.
 
D800 - successfully capturing with card IN camera

D800 - successfully capturing with card IN camera

In my tests I have been able to record via HDMI out with the card (a single SD) IN the D800. I am recording through a BlackMagic Decklink card into a Mac Pro and here is a clip captured at ProRes LT for your analysis lest I be missing something. Far as I can tell, I'm getting standard 1080 23.98 progressive normal capture. Am I missing something as no one else seems to be able to do this? The D800 is set to 'AUTO' for 23.98 output, 'Destination' SD and recording mode is 1080 24. 'Advanced' settings on D800 'LIMIT' for range '100%' display size and on-screen display 'OFF.'

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9033506/NIKON_D800/D800_WithCard_1080_24_AUTO_toBM.mov

Also, here is the EDID information for the BlackMagic card since it seems to be the most natively compatible device tested at the moment:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9033506/NIKON_D800/moninfo_BM.txt

The .mif and .bin files are also available if useful. Thanks to Bob for explaining how the EDID info is obtained.

Please comment mi amigos...
 
Pyriphlegethon said:
In my tests I have been able to record via HDMI out with the card (a single SD) IN the D800. I am recording through a BlackMagic Decklink card into a Mac Pro and here is a clip captured at ProRes LT for your analysis lest I be missing something. Far as I can tell, I'm getting standard 1080 23.98 progressive normal capture. Am I missing something as no one else seems to be able to do this? The D800 is set to 'AUTO' for 23.98 output, 'Destination' SD and recording mode is 1080 24. 'Advanced' settings on D800 'LIMIT' for range '100%' display size and on-screen display 'OFF.'
Click to expand...

There are two ways to verify that what you recorded via the BlackMagic card is the "clean" HDMI output or not:

  • Presumably the video clip was recorded both the the Mac and the SE card. You should be able to compare, frame by frame, the two recordings. If they are identical, then it is likely that you were recording h.264 compressed video on your Mac, rather than "clean" (uncompressed) video.
  • You can capture two new (but similar) clips for comparison, with and without the SD card inserted.

I wish I could run these verifications personally, but I am -- for the forseeable future -- D800-challenged.

-- Bob Elkind
 
Bob, just a quick verification. I'm not claiming to be able to record externally and internally simultaneously, just being able to record externally with a card in the camera. Did that EDID information prove useful?
 
Pyriphlegethon said:
Bob, Did that EDID information prove useful?
Click to expand...

I am eager to jump on it, but it's not on the top of my stack of things to do at the moment. Thank you very much for the EDID report!
Yes, it is all I need to reverse engineer the Black Magic HDMI capabilities and -- by inference -- the capabilities expected and required by the D800. (And if I can do it, anyone can do it!)

In another thread, there are reports that an EDID capabilities table which satisfies the D800 may not satisfy the D4, and vice versa. This is partially based on conjecture, partially based on anecdotal reports from a HDMI recorder vendor. In this context, "satisfy" means presenting an EDID capabilities table which convinces the D4/D800 to supply HDMI output in "native" rather than "interlaced wrapper" format.

The conflicting reports and guidance for memory card in or out vs. "clean" HDMI output is still an open question.
The uncertainty of what you recorded on the Mac Pro via BM card would be resolved if you recorded another D800 clip in Live Movie mode without memory cards inserted. This would remove any uncertainty that the D800 would -- if possible with the Black Magic card -- be providing "clean" HDMI video in native mode. Do you agree?

UPDATE: See following posts in this thread, which entirely answer this question.

-- Bob Elkind
 
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Dear DVX Users!

My name is Jeromy Young CEO of Atomos, I would like to clarify a few things about the D800, D4 and the Ninja. Thanks for all that have input into this discussion, you are right to be excited and I can tell you we are excited by the results and the quality and flexibility of this solution.
Nikon originally communicated when we requested true progressive form the sensor of the Nikon DSLR's, the output would be 60i or 50i and we would need to remove the pulldown to get 24psf, which is P but interlaced for data transfer (Field 0 and Field 1 make up one progressive frame) this works but is not ideal. It is this 24psf removed from 60i that our 2.1 AtomOS firmware recorded on the D4. Then the D800 was released and we found the output was not the same and that we had issues recording the 24psf.
After discovering this and finally obtaining a D800 last week (we did not get one pre release, it was a sudden release). Nikon then told us that to enable True 24P you needed to do the following:
Camera settings:
    • Movie Mode (which ever mode you want 108024, 25, or 30p)
    • HDMI Out settings - AUTO
    • No Cards in the camera (CF or SD) - The output does not change with cards in or out, this is to ensure users don't hit record in the true progressive modes and ruin the recording as the output will change to 720p if you hit record....
  • You must activate live view on the D800 to record to the ninja.
    The Ninja will auto detect the Progressive signal from the sensor, when the signal is locked , it will be displayed on the Ninja in the correct format and frame rate. (This may take up to half a second for the signals between the devices to be established.)​
Our 2.2 Firmware supports the true 24, 25 and 30p modes form the sensor - the results are truly amazing. Download here www.atomos.com/ninja/firmware
Remember no commercial camera from Japan gives this clean output in true progressive other than Nikon and it's $3000 + Ninja $1000 and you have a killer video recording solution that you must try!
I must thank Chris McGee from Melbourne, ex DOP of 20 Years in LA, not only did he lend the camera so we could make the AtomOS 2.2 work, he also taught me a lot about Film, and shooting with lenses in digital HD, Exposure, lighting and the way you frame the shot are critical and Film understanding helps a great deal.

I hope that helps and if you have any questions please ping out support and we can answer them, I will come back now and then and say hello and help clarify anything confusing.

Come see us and try the solution we have 3 D800's and some new releases you will be very interested in :-) NAB 2012 Booth C6647

Yours in production
Jeromy Young
CEO
Atomos
 
Thanks for the report Jeremy! I posted a link to your 2.2 firmware update a couple days ago--been waiting on it and very pleased to see you guys being aggressive at making your products compatible.

Bob, I did in fact do just as you mention. I recorded through BM card with and without an SD card present and compared the video. While the test may not have been perfectly objective and official, I could sense no difference in the quality of the output. Besides, I'm not sure the camera could produce an h.264 signal for recording via HDMI as you mention. Aren't they two entirely different signal paths?

It seems to me, as Jeremy mentions above, that this is more of a precautionary recommendation by Nikon and lots of people have jumped on the rumor without testing it, while the camera does function fine with a card internally. Again, to reiterate for those who may see only this thread, the camera does not record simultaneous 1080 24 output externally and internally, but a card can be present in the camera when recording externally.

With that resolved, it's now time to fix this dreaded moire issue. Should be posting some examples of a solution there in the coming days.
 
Pyriphlegethon said:
Bob, I did in fact do just as you mention. I recorded through BM card with and without an SD card present and compared the video. While the test may not have been perfectly objective and official, I could sense no difference in the quality of the output.
...
It seems to me, as Jeremy mentions above, that this is more of a precautionary recommendation by Nikon and lots of people have jumped on the rumor without testing it, while the camera does function fine with a card internally. Again, to reiterate for those who may see only this thread, the camera does not record simultaneous 1080 24 output externally and internally, but a card can be present in the camera when recording externally.
Click to expand...

Agreed on all points. Jeromy's post confirms your observations and convincingly takes down the widely-spread rumour.

Again, thank you for your time, effort, and postings.

-- Bob Elkind
 
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