Official: HDMI 1080 IS INTERLACED ONLY

Gents! I'm happy to report that the HDMI output w/o cards in the D800 is progressive. That is according to my Panasonic plasma. Picked up the camera this morning, plugged it in first thing, and the TV says 1080p. The TV doesn't report the frame rate, but the camera shows 24, so I'm assuming that's correct. What's weird is that the camera menu says HDMI is 1080i, but the TV says 1080p. Who knows why, but I'll take it!
 
The Nikon D4, with no QXD or CompactFlash card inserted, can be configured to output clean HDMI 1080p 23.98. The AJA Ki Pro Mini, beginning with version 3.0 firmware, which was recently released, will correctly interpret the D4's output and will report and record 1080p 23.98. A few things to keep in mind: the camera must be set to Auto for the HDMI output format and Live View must be activated for the "handshake" to happen properly. (It is doubtful that all external video recorders will behave in the same way as the "handshake" requires some work to achieve.) Also, it is good to be aware that when entering Menu on the camera, be aware that 1080i will be output. Another thing to keep in mind, noted in some very brief initial testing (so not completely quantified), is that it appears that Live View audio may not be delayed to match Live View video so some compensation in post may be needed for a/v sync when using an external video recorder. (If double-system sound is being recorded, likely this isn't an issue since there are software tools that provide compensation and "auto" a/v sync that are available.) Additionally, this has only been very briefly tested with the Nikon D4, not the Nikon D800.

Hope this information is helpful. Please be aware that I am not able to post sample videos, sorry, but can say that the images produced from the camera output being recorded by the Ki Pro Mini do look quite nice.

Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
 
Jon Thorn said:
The Nikon D4, with no QXD or CompactFlash card inserted, can be configured to output clean HDMI 1080p 23.98.

Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
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Jon,

Thank you very much for the report. This is indeed good news, and helps clear up a number of lingering questions.

If it isn't too much trouble, can you offer any insight into additional details:


  • Is the D4 HDMI output 4:2:2 YCrCb or 4:4:4 RGB (this should show up in the AJA Ki Pro Mini report) ?
  • Have you also tried and confirmed 1080p30 (actually 1080p29.97) ?
  • Audio is indeed embedded in HDMI (Live) output?
  • Would the presence of timecode be reported by the AJA Ki Pro Mini?

Again, thank you for your posting.

-- Bob Elkind
 
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Bob E. - You asked the following questions. (Please see answers in-line below your questions.)

- Is the D4 HDMI output 4:2:2 YCrCb or 4:4:4 RGB (this should show up in the AJA Ki Pro Mini report) ?
Reply: The AJA Ki Pro Mini is a 4:2:2 recorder so the output of the Nikon D4 is interpreted as a 4:2:2 signal.

- Have you also tried and confirmed 1080p30 (actually 1080p 29.97) ?
Reply: If the camera is configured for 1920x1080; 30 fps in the Movie Settings, the AJA Ki Pro Mini can receive and interpret this as 1080p 29.97. For 1920x1080; 25 fps, the AJA Ki Pro Mini will receive and interpret this as 1080p 25. For 1920x1080; 24 fps, the AJA Ki Pro Mini will receive and interpret this as 1080p 23.98.

- Audio is indeed embedded in HDMI (Live) output?
Reply: Yes, this would appear to be the case as I can hear audio and see the AJA Ki Pro Mini VU meters responding to the HDMI audio output of the camera. I also have audio when I play back the recording created with the AJA Ki Pro Mini. Again, it is worth noting, in initial testing, there appears to be an offset between the HDMI video and HDMI audio being output. I have a question regarding this delay posed to a collaborative contact at Nikon.

- Would the presence of timecode be reported by the AJA Ki Pro Mini?
Reply: This assumes a few factors (if I understand the way you are posing the question correctly); first, the camera would need to be outputting timecode via HDMI. So far, the only cameras on the market that offer HDMI timecode output support are select Sony NXCAM camcorders (which the AJA Ki Pro Mini supports beginning with v3.0 firmware) and second, if the HDMI timecode output was coming from the Nikon D4, but was not in the same methodology (assuming it is output) as the Sony camcorders, then the AJA Ki Pro Mini would not know how to interpret it at this time. (HDMI timecode is not a SMPTE specification or recommended practice at this time, so each implementation would be a unique effort for AJA.) It is worthwhile to keep in mind, when speaking about timecode, that the AJA Ki Pro Mini would be the master recorder and thus you could use the Ki Pro Mini's ability to generate a pre-set timecode value or time-of-day timecode value in drop or non-drop frame form.

I hope this additional information is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
 
Jon Thorn said:
I hope this additional information is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
Click to expand...

You and your colleagues have cleared up a number of lingering questions. Thank you, again, for your contributions.

HDMI timecode is not a SMPTE specification or recommended practice at this time, so each implementation would be a unique effort for AJA.
Click to expand...
Yes, but I imagine the infinitely curious wizards at AJA would notice some non-audio auxiliary data packets in the HDMI data stream. :smile:

Yet another followup question: Does the AJA recorder also support 1080p24/25/30 in 4:4:4 RGB (as opposed to 4:2:2 YCrCb) format on its HDMI input?

Here is why I ask: The D800 and D4 are, fundamentally, RGB acquisition devices. A YCrCb output would need to be encoded from RGB data stream inside the camera. A "purist" might prefer deferring colour space conversion until it is needed (e.g. final h.264 encoding).

-- Bob Elkind
 
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Bob E. - You asked: "Does the AJA recorder also support 1080p24/25/30 in 4:4:4 RGB (as opposed to 4:2:2 YCrCb) format on its HDMI input?"

Okay... we could end up veering off into a more complex discussion about HDMI standards, color specificity/management/conversion/handling, etc.... which I don't think is the focus of this thread... so I'll try to make my answer brief, not because I'm being evasive about an answer, but because I think the simplest answer is best here. The short answer is that the AJA Ki Pro Mini is a 4:2:2 recorder, and therefore, wants to receive a 4:2:2 YCbCr signal via HDMI.

Hope this is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
 
Here is a video posted by Atomos, curiously missing what would be the most logical component and thats a side by side comparison of footage from the camera and footage recorded by the ninja. My guess is that either Nikon, who they say they worked directly with, has asked them not to or that the Ninja recording isn't all that much better, simply the same soft DSLR look in a 4:2:2 color space.

Atomos: Smart Producers - Jonathan Harrison http://vimeo.com/38628324
 
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resonance_image said:
Atomos: Smart Producers - Jonathan Harrison http://vimeo.com/38628324
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There is a comment on this vimeo page that the Atomos Ninja removes pulldown. According to Atomos website, this is incorrect.

An excerpt from this page:
With 24p you will definitely need to remove the extra frames added to the 24p to get the signal to 50i or 60i. The Samurai will be able to do this on-board in real-time, but if you’re using a Ninja, you’ll have to do this pulldown removal in software.

-- Bob Elkind
 
If the D4 is outputting 1080p then would a pulldown removal be necessary? I remember seeing an interview with the Atomos CEO where he said that the Atomos will record whatever it is given so if it receives 1080p over HDMI then thats what it will record, if the signal was delivered interlaced then you would need the Samurai to do an on they fly pulldown removal.
 
resonance_image said:
If the D4 is outputting 1080p then would a pulldown removal be necessary?
Click to expand...

Agreed. From the Atomos Vimeo page:

Q. Is it true that the d4 can only output 1080i? How does this work with 24p? Does the Ninja remove pulldown? Thanks.
A. Ninja removes pulldown

The "answer" was provided by an 'expert' cinematographer, not by Atomos. I just don't understand why Atomos leaves such misinformation unchallenged. They must not be monitoring their Vimeo page.

As you pointed out, this 'answer' is wrong on two or three counts.

1. The D4 is capable of both 1080p and 1080i HDMI output.
2. The Ninja does not need to to perform reverse pulldown with the D4 (or D800).
3. The Ninja is not capable of reverse pulldown (the non-HDMI Samurai has reverse pulldown capability).

With a mere 3 words, that's quite a mess that's been left behind.

-- Bob Elkind
 
@Fotojorno

If you go back a page or two in this thread, you'll see that Jon Thorn confirms that the D4 can output 1080p directly when the memory cards are removed. If so then no need for pulldown removal.
 
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Perfect, thanks. I saw that back there but all the conflicting answers were getting me a little twisted. I'll still prob need the Connect so I can use my Samurai with the camera's HDMI out.
 
A very brief and maybe not that satisfying a test but the first one I've seen posted. Capture was done via Decklink capture card

"Note: While the settings in the HDMI out menu only go up to 1080i, the D800 does seem to output 23.98 if you set the HDMI 'Output Resolution' to 'Auto.' This will need to be tested further, but if all is well, this is a welcome alternative to shooting interlaced dealing with pulldown removal afterward."

Nikon D800 Internal Codec vs Clean HDMI Feed & D800 vs 5d MkII http://vimeo.com/39081477
 
Resonance, yes, like the GH2 manual says about it's playback, the D800 seems to be the same. Left to 'Auto' it spits out a progressive signal at 23.976 fps. Plugged a D800 into an AJA IOHD outside today to test bricks and trees against internal codec. The monitor was fine reading signal from the D800 as 1080p 24, but the IOHD wouldn't take it. I think the IOHD doesn't allow for 24p Input through HDMI--can anyone confirm? Seems like I may have even read this in a manual...I'd assume it's not a limitation of the HDMI format and that newer iterations like those in the Ninja will be fine. Even if this isn't the case, I'm fine with using an Atomos 'CONNECT' for the pulldown removal, it's just got to be a standard cadence.

Even with D800 set to 1080i output and IOHD capturing @ 1080i the cadence if the ingested material is four interlaced frames followed by a duplicate progressive frame. What kind of cadence is this?

Rainbow moire shows up frequently and unexpectedly. Other than that, D800 looks nice, but these rainbows are enough to be a deal breaker and permeate footage both internal and externally recorded.

EDIT: In answer to my question...from the IOHD manual:

"Formats supported (video only):525i, 625i, 720p 50/59.94/60, and 1080i 50/59.94/60 are supported on inputand output.1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, and 1080p30 are supported for output only."

So the real question now is what's up with this cadence when the camera output and capture settings are both 1080i, but the record format 24?
 
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