Slightly separate to the green screen thread, so a new thread for this question: I know there's been a lot of debate about this, especially in terms of green screen recording. Obviously the Panny needs an off board recorder for broadcast work, but I'm resistant to it for web work as I don't want to be tied to a rig (side note: try ditching your rig for handheld work; it's incredibly liberating!). I'm thinking of succumbing to a Pix 240 though, so my question is this: does an off board recorder really make THAT much difference? I'm not interested in charts and numbers, I'm interested to find out how much difference it really makes to the eye, and how much more latitude does it give in post (Avid MC6 for me). Do I really need one? What have your experiences been?
Off board vs internal recording
- Thread starter TomLenham
- Start date
Thanks Shooter - spotted your (as usual informative) thread responses just after I posted this one. Doh! So does your lovely new Samurai deliver a significantly different end product? Can you grade it beyond your wildest dreams, and see detail previously unimagined through the eyepiece? Or is it only a little bit sharper? I'm being flippant, but I guess what I really want to know is: can you now imagine life without an off board recorder? I absolutely get your point about extra costs beyond the recorder; the big thing for me is that I want to avoid adding yet another box and screen to the chain if I can. If it makes a big enough difference, then I'm prepared to accept that and uncover my HD-SDI port...
Shooter
Veteran
I will tell you more after I do my first proper shoot with it this week (then I will follow it thru the post pipeline.)
Before that...I know I cant do with out it already.
I have sleepless nights shooting to the SD Card (alone) and knowing there might be a $50,000 shoot on it. ( any shoot for that matter)
I know the post will be easier with 4.2.2
I know handing off prores files is more efficient in the cross facility and cross platform workflow I have. ( wont need Clip Wrapping)
I know the workflow is faster. SSD is super fast for transfer
Single files instead of the whole enchillada that comes with a Private Folders
I know that I will enjoy naming my files uniquely as I shoot. (Unique file names for clips)
I know that we will use the playback in the field in a variety of new ways.
I now will have a choice of which files to edit with. eg Save space in the local NLE system and conform final edit with the selects from the Prores sources.
My crew now dont have to do back ups at the end of the day and we can separate the rushes to separate locations on wrap.
....
BUT ...I also know I cant shoot VFR to it...( darn, darn, darn).... but I have a little work around for that.
There is another little possible gotcha with External Drives.
If one plays back from the camera...the Samurai (and others I presume) will trigger into record and record that clip from the camera.. Think about that and how confusing that could get. Double up of clips! One being true prores at 4.2.2 and the other whatever comes off the card. ( 4.2.0 8 bit)
Here is what we wil do: General practice will be all playbacks actioned off the Samuari otherwise we will de trigger the function from the Samurai touch screen. Its a simple and easy button push ....but it needs to be remembered and also needs to be turned on again most importantly.
But every cloud has a silver lining and in this case a little workaround.
We discovered that if we shoot VFR, the samuari wont record it. Actually it records a second or 2 then gives up.
But if we playback to the samurai from the camera...it records the clip as VFR. (albeit 4.2.0 but prores none the less)
How cool is that dudes?
None of this is difficult and no cables are re patched or anything. Everything is already in the chain. Camera , all monitors, Samurai etc...
Answer...VEEEEEERRRY COOOOOL.
Before that...I know I cant do with out it already.
I have sleepless nights shooting to the SD Card (alone) and knowing there might be a $50,000 shoot on it. ( any shoot for that matter)
I know the post will be easier with 4.2.2
I know handing off prores files is more efficient in the cross facility and cross platform workflow I have. ( wont need Clip Wrapping)
I know the workflow is faster. SSD is super fast for transfer
Single files instead of the whole enchillada that comes with a Private Folders
I know that I will enjoy naming my files uniquely as I shoot. (Unique file names for clips)
I know that we will use the playback in the field in a variety of new ways.
I now will have a choice of which files to edit with. eg Save space in the local NLE system and conform final edit with the selects from the Prores sources.
My crew now dont have to do back ups at the end of the day and we can separate the rushes to separate locations on wrap.
....
BUT ...I also know I cant shoot VFR to it...( darn, darn, darn).... but I have a little work around for that.
There is another little possible gotcha with External Drives.
If one plays back from the camera...the Samurai (and others I presume) will trigger into record and record that clip from the camera.. Think about that and how confusing that could get. Double up of clips! One being true prores at 4.2.2 and the other whatever comes off the card. ( 4.2.0 8 bit)
Here is what we wil do: General practice will be all playbacks actioned off the Samuari otherwise we will de trigger the function from the Samurai touch screen. Its a simple and easy button push ....but it needs to be remembered and also needs to be turned on again most importantly.
But every cloud has a silver lining and in this case a little workaround.
We discovered that if we shoot VFR, the samuari wont record it. Actually it records a second or 2 then gives up.
But if we playback to the samurai from the camera...it records the clip as VFR. (albeit 4.2.0 but prores none the less)
How cool is that dudes?
None of this is difficult and no cables are re patched or anything. Everything is already in the chain. Camera , all monitors, Samurai etc...
Answer...VEEEEEERRRY COOOOOL.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Does the samurai trigger recording based on the SDI record start/stop flag, or only on advancing timecode? The advancing timecode is a cheesy hack way to do it, and will cause the problem you encountered (playing back on camera sends the recorder into record mode). But if they've implemented the SDI record start/stop flag, then that shouldn't happen -- the recorder should only trigger when it sees the appropriate flag, which will only happen when the camera goes into record.
I thought Dave Shapton said that they implemented both ways in the Samurai, but sadly Dave is no longer with the company so I guess we'll have to ask someone else...
I thought Dave Shapton said that they implemented both ways in the Samurai, but sadly Dave is no longer with the company so I guess we'll have to ask someone else...
Shooter
Veteran
Sorry Barry.
I dont have the tech savvy to give you a definitive answer to this.
My guess is that it is the Advancing TC that is the trigger and I dont think there is an option to change that.
Its very easy to toggle the trigger from the front level screen and also to change the TC modes ( and everything else for that matter)
It wont be a problem for us anyway.
I dont have the tech savvy to give you a definitive answer to this.
My guess is that it is the Advancing TC that is the trigger and I dont think there is an option to change that.
Its very easy to toggle the trigger from the front level screen and also to change the TC modes ( and everything else for that matter)
It wont be a problem for us anyway.
EndCredits
Well-known member
You can select the way its reading the TC in the menu as I recall.
I got my Samurai a few weeks ago but don't have it on me as its been sent back to Atomos. It stopped recording sound and a few other glitches, apparently this is well known and soon to be fixed. So Shooter id say don't rely on it just yet, mine froze a few time on a shoot 2 weeks ago.
I got my Samurai a few weeks ago but don't have it on me as its been sent back to Atomos. It stopped recording sound and a few other glitches, apparently this is well known and soon to be fixed. So Shooter id say don't rely on it just yet, mine froze a few time on a shoot 2 weeks ago.
Shooter
Veteran
Thanx for heads up regarding possible reliabilty issue.
I will check , but I dont recall any other triggering options.
What media are you using - SSD or spinnig HD?
How were you recording sound to the device? eg thru SDI or the audio connections on the device
What were the other glitches?
I will check , but I dont recall any other triggering options.
What media are you using - SSD or spinnig HD?
How were you recording sound to the device? eg thru SDI or the audio connections on the device
What were the other glitches?
EndCredits
Well-known member
SDI and SSD (quick answer just leaving house) 
Thanks for that Shooter - all good points. I was assuming the VFR thing would record VFR to camera, and normal speed to the recorder, which I considered to be a bonus (you could potentially set the camera to VFR and record everything slo-mo whilst having a standard speed and audio version on the Samurai), but it's a shame if it doesn't work that way. Think I'll rent one and see how much difference it makes to my work first...
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