Odyssey7 & Odyssey7Q Status Update

[Daomay]

I understand that in about a week, some of you will get your hand on the oydessy7Q. Please be honest with us FS700's owner and test the hell out of it and share the love. Some of us do love our FS700 but I would like to wait a bit longer before we jump on the bandwagon. Positive or negative...it doesn't bother me. I have all the time in the world to just look through 2K or non 2K with the Oydessy7Q footages.

Warm regards,
Dao

 

[Gene Sung]

+999 on everything else. I'm super impatient, i've been subconsciously pushing shoots back just in case... I ought to stop that.

cheers
Paul

Haha! I've been doing exactly the same thing. I have a client music video coming that I can't push off, but my personal and spec projects I'm just pushing back. Actually, I'm just taking a bunch of motion graphic jobs so I can make a bunch of money and then have a lot of free time to shoot when my recorder comes.

And for those of you who are canceling your pre-orders, please do! Because that just means I get the 7Q faster rogar-BigGrin(DBG) I figure at the very least, I will have a good monitor, 4:2:2 8-bit external recording and 240fps RAW, which from what I've seen (even if it has aliasing and what not) is still miles better than the current 240fps avchd which is aliased to hell.

And YES, everyone write on that Sony link. Chances are they won't listen, but nothing will happen at all if you don't put out the effort.

http://community.sony.com/t5/FS700/...dyssey-7Q-with-the-FS700-R/m-p/227203#U227203

 

[Gene Sung]

I'm sure it's not technical, and i'm very pleased to hear that - reassuring. I'll happily take dpx files at the moment, something that doesn't require licensing if thats an issue.

Quick question on DPX files.

1) Is DPX considered un-compressed?
2) On 2 x 512 gigs (total of 1tb), how many minutes of 4K can I expect to get with DPX?
3) Isn't DPX 4K currently working with the 7Q?

 

[FDP]

Quick question on DPX files.

1) Is DPX considered un-compressed?
2) On 2 x 512 gigs (total of 1tb), how many minutes of 4K can I expect to get with DPX?
3) Isn't DPX 4K currently working with the 7Q?

DPX is uncompressed, but not raw. It is around 50MB/frame for 4k 10bit.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Quick question on DPX files.

1) Is DPX considered un-compressed?
2) On 2 x 512 gigs (total of 1tb), how many minutes of 4K can I expect to get with DPX?
3) Isn't DPX 4K currently working with the 7Q?

1 DPX is an uncompressed file format. There is no codec involved.

2 & 3 Currently, the Odyssey7Q supports two file formats with the Sony FS700. It can accept the HD-SDI or HDMI 1920x1080 video signal and record them as .DPX video files. The Odyssey7Q can also accept the 2K RAW output of the FS700 at any frame rate (all the way up to 240fps) and record the information as .DNG data files. The Odyssey7Q also deBayers the RAW data to show it as a video signal on its OLED panel and output it as a 1920x1080 video signal via HD-SDI and HDMI.

While the Odyssey7Q will accept the 4K RAW signal out of the FS700, deBayer it and output a 1920x1080 video down convert to its OLED and HD-SDI & HDMI outputs, it currently does not record the 4K signal in any way.

 

[Colinelves]

1 DPX is an uncompressed file format. There is no codec involved.

2 & 3 Currently, the Odyssey7Q supports two file formats with the Sony FS700. It can accept the HD-SDI or HDMI 1920x1080 video signal and record them as .DPX video files. The Odyssey7Q can also accept the 2K RAW output of the FS700 at any frame rate (all the way up to 240fps) and record the information as .DNG data files. The Odyssey7Q also deBayers the RAW data to show it as a video signal on its OLED panel and output it as a 1920x1080 video signal via HD-SDI and HDMI.

While the Odyssey7Q will accept the 4K RAW signal out of the FS700, deBayer it and output a 1920x1080 video down convert to its OLED and HD-SDI & HDMI outputs, it currently does not record the 4K signal in any way.

So is the 4K hold up a licensing issue? Or a technical issue? Or a bit of both? I'm sort of guessing the problem is that Sony won't let you store the 4K as anything other than compressed (so dpx is out, even if it is debayered and hence not Raw) so you need to develop the 4K compression coding before you can do anything with it - am I right?

BTWwhat's the bit depth and colour resolution that you're sending out the HD-SDI outputs? Is it better than the 8bit 4:2:2 the camera does itself? If so I'm now thinking I might get the O7Q and keeping my Samurai for a bit (I was going to sell it!) so I can use the Odyssey to debayer the raw and record the HD-DSI output from the 7Q.

That's assuming, if course, that you haven't disabled the 4K monitoring...

 

[Colinelves]

I totally get what you're saying, and almost this exact functionality was one of the first things I suggested when I joined Convergent Design. My idea actually goes beyond that, but let's see what we can make happen. For right now, it is the standard center cut pixel zoom but in a future free firmware update you will be able to scrub your finger around the image for magnification. There's more to it than that , but basically we will do what you are asking.

sorry, I got side-tracked by the roadmap discussion - but I meant to say: thanks for the response! I really appreciate that. Clearly you're adding HUGE value to CD, beyond simply communicating effectively with their customers!

One minor thing: Dragging your figure across the screen seems a little slow to me - and has potential to mess up the shot a bit.

The reason I suggested a zoom position as a 'finger jab' is that I often use the FS700 for docco style shoots hand held and focus is a total nightmare (as you can expect) so I'm after a really quick method to check focus exactly where I need it: something where I can let go of one of the moose bars, jab the screen, adjust focus and go back to holding both hand grips in the space of a few seconds.

It probably sounds a bit mental as I'm effectively talking about using the o7Q as a (big!) EVF - but it works for me - so, ideally, something that works in that mode would be great.

 

[paulcurtis]

BTWwhat's the bit depth and colour resolution that you're sending out the HD-SDI outputs? Is it better than the 8bit 4:2:2 the camera does itself? If so I'm now thinking I might get the O7Q and keeping my Samurai for a bit (I was going to sell it!) so I can use the Odyssey to debayer the raw and record the HD-DSI output from the 7Q.

That's a really interesting thought and question. Mitch does say that the 7Q will accept, debayer and down convert the 4K RAW signal, so, depending on the quality of the down convert maybe that's recordable off board...

There are 4K samples on the CD site so technically it's there, it looks great.

cheers
Paul

 

[Colinelves]

And YES, everyone write on that Sony link. Chances are they won't listen, but nothing will happen at all if you don't put out the effort.

http://community.sony.com/t5/FS700/...dyssey-7Q-with-the-FS700-R/m-p/227203#U227203

I've added my name and thoughts to the thread. I have to admit I think Sony is making an incredibly foolish business decision by preventing the O7Q from recording the 4K Raw.

Sony are living in a fantasy land if they think that preventing Convergent Design from recording the FS700 4K Raw will somehow encourage people to buy the HXR-IF5, since it clearly isn't happening.

Nobody is buying the HXR-IF5, not even the rental houses who already own R5s for their F5s and F55s, and so could potentially recoup the purchase cost via rental to FS700 owners or via their own FS700s - I've checked with all the big rental houses here the UK and none of them have made the investment and none of them seem interested. You literally cannot get hold of one, even if you want to.

It's clear that nobody sees the FS700+HXR-IF5+R5 combination as a 4K solution. Currently the best budget 4K Raw option is the Canon C500+O7Q!

Ironically enough, rather than driving sales of the HXR-IF5, the decision is simply harming sales of the FS700 - and driving sales of the C500!

I'm sure Sony are aware of this: they'll have the sales figures for the HXR-IF5 and I'm sure Canon won't be shy about trumping the increased sales of the Canon C500 once the O7Q comes out.

From a hard-nosed business perspective it's crazy to damage the sales of one (successful!) product in the vague hope of selling a few more units of a complete dud - especially if it drives customers to a competitor. It's a classic case of the sunk-cost fallacy.

I just hope that someone sensible at Sony can be persuaded to make the obvious (albeit hard!) decision to pull the plug on the HXR-IF5 and let the O7Q drive greater sales of the FS700 by licensing them the 4K Raw.

 

[paulcurtis]

I've added my name and thoughts to the thread. I have to admit I think Sony is making an incredibly foolish business decision by preventing the O7Q from recording the 4K Raw.

Sony are living in a fantasy land if they think that preventing Convergent Design from recording the FS700 4K Raw will somehow encourage people to buy the HXR-IF5, since it clearly isn't happening.

+1

If you're going to rent, then you'd be renting an F5/F55 instead. 700 owners aren't renters in general, it's a psychological and demographic thing with 'owning their kit'

It's an ergonomic donkey, almost laughably so. I'd loved to be been a fly on the wall in those design meetings...

cheers
Paul

 

[cuervo]

Nice try, you guys.:thumbsup:

 

[Colinelves]

+1

If you're going to rent, then you'd be renting an F5/F55 instead. 700 owners aren't renters in general, it's a psychological and demographic thing with 'owning their kit'

cheers
Paul

To be perfectly honest, Sony's decision could backfire in more ways than one.

Given the preponderance of firmware hacks out there I would not say it is beyond the realms of possibility that someone would be able to hack the O7Q to record the 4K Raw stream anyway (which I guess would be easier than many other hacks since it involves bypassing a whole series of steps rather than having to add any new ones in) especially given the low-budget owner-operator character profile of the FS700 user base.

In which case the option would be out there, but Sony would be denied the ability to use it as part of their marketing (shoot 4K raw for $9,000 with the FS700 and Odyssey 7Q! No other camera comes close in terms of affordability and versatility!!! Etc etc).

In fact, given Convergent Design's licensing model, Sony could even charge extra for the 4K Raw licence - making them more money, more, I suspect, than they make in profits from the sale of each crummy $2k HXR-IF5.

As I said before, it's a really stupid business decision - one only explained by a desire to avoid embarrassing someone who made another bad decision when signing off on the IF5. In all honestly, they probably should have pulled the plug on that one after CD told them the 7Q would be able to handle the footage.

 

[Daomay]

To be perfectly honest, Sony's decision could backfire in more ways than one.

Given the preponderance of firmware hacks out there I would not say it is beyond the realms of possibility that someone would be able to hack the O7Q to record the 4K Raw stream anyway (which I guess would be easier than many other hacks since it involves bypassing a whole series of steps rather than having to add any new ones in) especially given the low-budget owner-operator character profile of the FS700 user base.

In which case the option would be out there, but Sony would be denied the ability to use it as part of their marketing (shoot 4K raw for $9,000 with the FS700 and Odyssey 7Q! No other camera comes close in terms of affordability and versatility!!! Etc etc).

In fact, given Convergent Design's licensing model, Sony could even charge extra for the 4K Raw licence - making them more money, more, I suspect, than they make in profits from the sale of each crummy $2k HXR-IF5.

As I said before, it's a really stupid business decision - one only explained by a desire to avoid embarrassing someone who made another bad decision when signing off on the IF5. In all honestly, they probably should have pulled the plug on that one after CD told them the 7Q would be able to handle the footage.

Seriously if Mitch can make the time to come on this site on a daily basis...admins peoples please give one SONY employee....that is looking after the FS700 department a user name and password. I just want to say HI to the him or her on this forum..then maybe one or two question. hehe

 

[cuervo]

With all due respect, Daomay, after the grilling that Mitch is subjected to, all manner of questions from the inane to the serious, I think Sony would be foolish to ask one of their employees to participate in this community.

 

[Gene Sung]

you're wasting your breath and your bandwidth to try to get sony to do ANYTHING. The only way you'll ever get their attention is if sales start lagging in favor of a competing brand at the same price point.

Nice try, you guys.:thumbsup:

Hey Cuervo, instead of taking a condescending / mocking tone towards the rest of us, maybe try to be part of the solution. We ALL UNDERSTAND that it probably won't do anything, but that does not stop us from trying. Doing absolutely nothing as you suggest will get absolutely nothing done at all. So yeah, maybe put a little effort in and even if nothing happens, we can say we tried to do something to push Sony.

 

[Mitch Gross]

We could theoretically record 4K uncompressed DPX files, but we currently do not. This has nothing to do with Sony. The reason we don't is that such files would be insanely large, and we really question whether anyone would really want such a thing. I don't have the math in front of me, but I think 4K DPX file (that means a frame each of R, G & B) at 24fps would give you maybe 20 min. on 1TB of memory. It's frickin' huge. Does anyone really want to deal with that?

Our HD-SDI utput is 1920x1080 10-bit, and we can output either 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. It is not 4K, it is 1920x1080 derived from the 4K.

 

[Mitch Gross]

sorry, I got side-tracked by the roadmap discussion - but I meant to say: thanks for the response! I really appreciate that. Clearly you're adding HUGE value to CD, beyond simply communicating effectively with their customers!

One minor thing: Dragging your figure across the screen seems a little slow to me - and has potential to mess up the shot a bit.

The reason I suggested a zoom position as a 'finger jab' is that I often use the FS700 for docco style shoots hand held and focus is a total nightmare (as you can expect) so I'm after a really quick method to check focus exactly where I need it: something where I can let go of one of the moose bars, jab the screen, adjust focus and go back to holding both hand grips in the space of a few seconds.

It probably sounds a bit mental as I'm effectively talking about using the o7Q as a (big!) EVF - but it works for me - so, ideally, something that works in that mode would be great.

Understood, and on it.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Gentlemen, let me try to state this tactfully.

Calling people names or telling them how to do their jobs is not likely to gain you positive influence. However, explaining your position and trying to make helpful suggestions may have a positive outcome.

Sony is a big company, with numerous layers of management, international divisions, and a complicated process to making decisions. Certain decisions have been made, and even if some of their employees wish to make a change, it is something which would take time to work through the system. By lending your voice of support for a certain change and laying out well-reasoned informative comments as to why you would find such a change helpful both to you and to Sony, the people within the company wishing to make a change can use this to bolster their position.

This is not just a nice philosophy for getting through life, but also a functional reality.

Lastly, don't think that you are in some remote little backwater here. While Sony does have its own forum (which I suggest you all continue to use as your support outlet), don't think that they don't monitor such discussions across numerous places on the internet.

They are not stupid, but a battleship cannot turn on a dime.

 

[cuervo]

Hey Cuervo, instead of taking a condescending / mocking tone towards the rest of us, maybe try to be part of the solution. We ALL UNDERSTAND that it probably won't do anything, but that does not stop us from trying. Doing absolutely nothing as you suggest will get absolutely nothing done at all. So yeah, maybe put a little effort in and even if nothing happens, we can say we tried to do something to push Sony.

Well, sorry if you're in disagreement with my approach, Gene. Sony is a multi-million dollar corporation with a well defined business plan. I applaud anyone who puts the time into trying to move a mountain, regardless of how naive I think they are being. Historically, sony is a monolithic wall that does not provide any customer support, to speak of. They have trampled over all my interactions with them, in the past.

As far as FS700 owners go, we're a drop in the corporate bucket, about the size of a flea on a buffalo's back. I'm sure the collective influence of all FS700 owners doesn't come close to what a major film company in Hollywood spends at Sony.

I present my perspective, whether it is deemed "condescending and mocking", or not. Take it or leave it, and insulting me is just in poor form.

 

[paulcurtis]

We could theoretically record 4K uncompressed DPX files, but we currently do not. This has nothing to do with Sony. The reason we don't is that such files would be insanely large, and we really question whether anyone would really want such a thing. I don't have the math in front of me, but I think 4K DPX file (that means a frame each of R, G & B) at 24fps would give you maybe 20 min. on 1TB of memory. It's frickin' huge. Does anyone really want to deal with that?
Our HD-SDI utput is 1920x1080 10-bit, and we can output either 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. It is not 4K, it is 1920x1080 derived from the 4K.

Well that's piqued my interest... Can you say what kind of downsampling is done from 4K to 1080p? Is it a nearest neighbour style or a quality scale? In other words: is it worth recording the output?

No, you're right, i don't really want to deal with 10bit DPX files (although i do have too sometimes), i'd much rather a compressed 10 bit log solution, unless that was far off in the distance which, hopefully, it doesn't sound like it is...

thanks for all the responses, it must be getting quite tiring!

cheers
Paul