Odyssey 7q 50/60p using hdmi to sdi

timmytimetravel

timmytimetravel

Well-known member
This might be important for Sony A7s, so thought I would tackle it now ahead of time.

1) The A7s outputs clean, full sensor read fullframe, recordable by the 7q and it looks damn good! Better than internal fs700 avchd, slightly less than 4k2hd. No moire or aliasing etc.

2) I cannot get 1080p 50/60 which is the fixed output of the camera to record correctly in the 7q.

I posted this query before, its now buried deep in the 130 page firmware thread. Also thought I would wait for the new fw with psf etc fixes to see if results were different. (i'm running the new fw).

I've almost got 50/60p from hdmi into the 7q using a hdmi>sdi converter. After trying 3 brands/models, the only one that worked was the atomos connect H2S (I've got battery version). It also does 2:2 pulldown, which lets me take a 1080i50 signal (which in many new camera is the only option aside from 1080p 50/60 fixed uncompressed out, and turn it into 25p which the odyessy can see in multistream for matching.

This was mitch's statement at the time :

"The Odyssey7Q cannot accept 1080p50 or 1080p60 over HDMI. It is a hardware limitation.

It can accept thaose signals via SDI, so you could purchase a small converter box, stick it to the back of the Odyssey7Q, power them off the same battery and record the signal that way. Note that at these framerates we currently only support DPX recording.
Mitch Gross
Director of Communications
Convergent-Design
​
"

I can get 1080i50/60 into psf25/30. I can 2:2 pulldown 1080p50 into 1080p25. But I still cannot get a clean 1080p 50/60 signal into the 7q. I've two cameras tested, Sony A7 and fS700. Both have the same issue with 50/60p hdmi > sdi recording in the 7q in dpx.

Note the h2s has a very cool test pattern mode. I can set all sorts of framerates and test patterns. I found that once set to 1080p50/60 the 7q did have a harder time not detecting it as PSF. I swap into that mode, it shows psf. I leave the test pattern generating, unplug the sdi into the 7q, plug it in again, its detected as 1080p50.

Here are two examples. 25p and 50p. Converted in resolve but untouched otherwise. Also is some dpx original frames from the 50p.

Aside from mitch chiming in, has anyone seen these sort of wierd scanning effect before. Some crazy pulldown thing or ??

The wierd thing is, looks perfect on the screen during monitoring on the 7q, but the output looks as the example. Oh and the 25p has some wierd horizontal jaggies on it. Pretty sure I've just missed a setting, I'm sure I've got non interlaced looking footage out of it during a previous test. Maybe using pulldown instead of psf or vice versa.

https://vimeo.com/92037956

https://vimeo.com/92037957


DPX frame samples - https://www.dropbox.com/s/pg97tracs2yvznl/Archive 2.zip
 
Thanks for this good problem description!

Since I'm interested in recording fast moving birds (with a DSLR mounted to a watching scope) at 1080p50, I was about to purchase the 7Q to be able to record HDMI output from a Sony A77 mk II (which in my tests turned out to have better video quality that its full frame predecessor, the A99).

My dealer arranged a test (thanks a lot!) where we connected the DSLRs (A77 II and A99, and later even a PMW-F55) using three different HDMI to SDI converters, first the Atomos H2S [with current firmware] (which had some problems detecting the 50p signal from the A77 II, it takes some turning off and on until the conversion is stable, similar to the behaviour of the A77 II connected to a computer monitor with HDMI input), a Blackmagic Mini (?) Converter (which in this test didn't synchronize at all, maybe because of a misconfiguration), and a Blackmagic Battery Converter. The proper SDI output was verified using a display (I don't remember which brand) with native SDI input.

The 7Q was set to DPX mode, both either to "Sony Other" or "Other". The firmware level of the 7Q seemed to be current (at least it showed recently added features like ProRes recording, even from FS700).

With both working converters (H2S and BM Battery Converter) the behaviour @1080p50 was the same you described above, even with the HDMI signal coming from a PMW-F55.
Some info in addition: when first connected the 7Q detects the input as "1080 50p" and displays a proper preview. As soon as recording is started the display on the 7Q changes to "25 PSF". The preview remains ok, but the recording is broken. After stopping the recording the unit still displays 25 PSF, even in preview mode w/o recording. You need to disconnect and reconnect the source _twice_ to return to "50p" indication on the 7Q.

Recording the SDI signal from the PMW-F55 (@1080p50) directly (without HDMI>SDI converter) worked fine.


btw: Some tests I did later in the evening using a Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle @1080p25 revealed that recording HDMI from the A77 II (or A99) seems to be pointless anyway, because the HDMI signal (at least in my tests) was identical to what was recorded internally, i. e. with some kind of compression beforehand. The still frames I grabbed from a simultaneous recording internally (AVCHD) and externally (HDMI via BM Shuttle, uncompressed) showed exactly the same compression/blocking artefacts. Recording the same scene using a BMPCC (Prores) delivered a clean still frame. I'm still investigating this...
 
i test my a99 with 7q via hdmi, it only give 30p frame rate, how can i switch to other frame rate? No matter what frame rate i set in my camera, it sitll show 30p and no other option can choose on 7Q too
 
As far as I understood the docs 7q can't do anything above 30p via HDMI. It seems to be a hardware limitation.
You need to convert HDMI to SDI and feed this into the 7q. But even then it will only display 50/60p, but recordings are broken.
We will have to wait until this is fixed in firmware (hopefully not hardwired...).
 
Don't know if it was the new 4K converter or an older one. That one didn't work anyway, probably just because of some misconfiguration.
The Blackmagic battery converter we used to veriry the problem was not only related to the H2S worked at 50/60p fine, and initially it did show up on the 7q as 50p and displayed a proper preview stream, but recordings were broken, too.
 
If cd had not fixed this issue before the 7s comes to general availability I was going to get a ninja star so I can get 10bit, however it doesn't do 50/60p either. Only the shogun does. Sigh. It's so cheap I'll probably get one just to record 25psf since I still have the above issues using the h2s (which at least works with a few disconnect/reconnects) which none of the others did.

they are not expensive, cd could go and buy one and test it themselves. They've stated that hdmi to sdi should work with 50/60p but no single forum member has been able to get it working properly with any device. With the a7s almost here if they fixed this they would at least have a workaround for uncompressed output other than 4 sdi to 6gsdi or upping the 7q hardware to hdmi 2.0
 
dl3led said:
As far as I understood the docs 7q can't do anything above 30p via HDMI. It seems to be a hardware limitation.
You need to convert HDMI to SDI and feed this into the 7q. But even then it will only display 50/60p, but recordings are broken.
We will have to wait until this is fixed in firmware (hopefully not hardwired...).
Click to expand...

My camera a99 was set as 24/25p both not working, it still give me 30p in 7Q, different format giving me bad quality.
 
My dealer estimated Shogun won't be there before September...
That's why I got the Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle. That way I could at least do some tests on HDMI output of my Sony DSLRs.

So far it looks to me as if these cameras output the same compressed video data that gets recorded internally (AVCHD).
These cameras provide "clean HDMI" in the sense that you can turn off the info overlay, but so far I can't see any "uncompressed" output that everyone is talking about. Maybe there is slightly more color (4:2:2 vs 4:2:0? I can't verify this. But the output is limited to 8 bit anyway, even if it is recorded with a 10 bit recorder).

The still frames I extracted look almost the same.
I deliberately shot a fast pan in the darkness to create footage where compression is strong, and you can see blocking artefacts all over.
However, these artefacts are the same on the HDMI output:

http://dl3led.de/HDMI/A77II_AVCHD.png
http://dl3led.de/HDMI/A77II_HDMI.png

This is what a similar shot looks like with the BMPCC (captured via HDMI out, but looks identical using the internal recording):
http://dl3led.de/HDMI/BMPCC_HDMI.png

The A99 recording and HDMI output has less blocking artefacts, but is barely usable anyway because it lacks sharpness. The A77 video output is ways better.

I'm really curious to see how the A7S will perform regarding both internal and external video quality, but as far as I understood it will be 8 bit only, even with external recording?
 
Did you set set HDMI output to 1080i (instead of 1080p)? Last menu set submenu #2.
This setting is independent of the recording settings.

"1080p" means 50p in this case. To output 25 PSF the HDMI setting in the A99 needs to be interlaced (i. e. "1080i"), and the record setting "25p 24M(FX)".
This works fine with the Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle recorder.

I assume the region settings of your camera are set to PAL land (otherwise you wouldn't be able to select 25p, I think)?
Maybe you're still set to 1080p50, and the 7q can't handle that and displays the highest possible frame rate (30p) instead.
 
If you bought the camera in NTSC land, it is probably a "60i" device. Look at the label on the bottom of the camera, below the SONY logo. It says either "50i" or "60i" there.
"60i" means all frame rates are set up for 30 or 60 fields per second (whereas the model sold in Europe says "50i" and uses 25 or 50 fields per second).
If your device is "60i" (with the A99 you cannot switch this, as far as I know only the A77 mk II has an option for this called "PAL/NTSC selector") you don't see 25p, 50i ... rates, and HDMI output is probably based on 60 fields per second as well (so either 60p or 60i, which the 7q might handle as 30p (PSF).

As far as I know converting 24p to 30/60 and vice versa is done using "pulldown" (I'm not familiar with that, in PAL land everything is easier :-) ).
Either the recorder needs to handle this, or you might be able to use a converter like the Atomos H2S, that has convertion options for PSF as well as for pulldown.

Anyway, from what I found out so far: I doubt the video quality you might get from the A99 is worth the effort. It's a great stills camera, but video modes are barely usable.
 
This issue with the 7q still not being able to take a 50/60p signal from a hdmi camera via an sdi converter persists in the new firmware and has in fact got worse. You can still take a 1080i signal and get Psf or now i up to 30p, that's it.

i really would have thought catering to sony a7s users for more sales would have been a tested priority. As it stands looks like the 7q cannot take a progressive converted hdmi input on sdi, and still maxes out at 30p for converted hdmi > sdi signals.

Anyone got one yet and latest 7q firmware who can confirm the a7s output is fixed to 50/60p/50/60i for full sensor readout?
 
What setting is your 7Q on to get the output from the A7s? I cant get mine to work...

Actually, what setting for the Odyssey and the A7s?

Many Thanks!
 
It does work now on current firmware, the trick is there is only one hdmi to sdi converter so far that works. You can now get a progressive signal in via conversion. Still no 4k support even with a converter as far as I know. I'd be tempted to think if you took the signal from the converter which is likely 3gsdi 4k and used a splitter to two single sdi's then maybe you would now get 4k prores from the a7s via sdi conversion since it only supports single link at the moment, and it would only be up to 30p. Somehow I just figure it won't work either though. Mitch?
 
Currently the Odyssey7Q cannot receive 4K video from the a7S. The maximum resolution/framerate available via the HDMI port is 1080p30, recordable in ProRes 422(HQ). With the proper HDMI to SDI converter a 1080 60p signal can be captured in ProRes 422(HQ). I like this unit because it is only $60 and can run on 5-12v power: http://www.amazon.com/Excelvan®-MIN...4811006&sr=8-1&keywords=hdmi+to+sdi+converter

I'm not really clear with what you are proposing with a splitter. There are currently only two 4K HDMI to SDI converters on the market. One is the YAHG accessory base for the GH4 and the other is a box from Blackmagic Design. That box doesn't appear to reliably work with the a7S, at least not in our test.

We plan to soon have a solution for recording from 4K HDMI sources like the A7s. As soon as we have something to tell we certainly will let you know.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Currently the Odyssey7Q cannot receive 4K video from the a7S. The maximum resolution/framerate available via the HDMI port is 1080p30, recordable in ProRes 422(HQ). With the proper HDMI to SDI converter a 1080 60p signal can be captured in ProRes 422(HQ). I like this unit because it is only $60 and can run on 5-12v power: http://www.amazon.com/Excelvan®-MIN...4811006&sr=8-1&keywords=hdmi+to+sdi+converter

I'm not really clear with what you are proposing with a splitter. There are currently only two 4K HDMI to SDI converters on the market. One is the YAHG accessory base for the GH4 and the other is a box from Blackmagic Design. That box doesn't appear to reliably work with the a7S, at least not in our test.

We plan to soon have a solution for recording from 4K HDMI sources like the A7s. As soon as we have something to tell we certainly will let you know.
Click to expand...

I think probably won't work, I was proposing maybe the excelvan cinverter could take 4k at a non hfr frame rate, and if it did it would be outputting 3G dual link sdi 4k. Thus then currently requiring a 3G sdi to dual single sdi splitter/converter for 7q to accept 4k30p on sdi. I had thought you didn't neccrssarily need hdmi 2.0 for up to 30p 4k, you could do it with hdmi 1.4a/b which the excelvan undoubtably is. Just checked the specs though, no mention of 4k. Additionally it's entirely possible the a7s has detection and does not enable 4k output unless it detects hdmi 2.0 ? Certainly the 4k output seems to remain "disabled" in any mode I can find with the converter plugged in
 
From the release notes firmware 4.10:

FIXES & IMPROVEMENTS

  • FIXED HDMI input detection with Blackmagic HDMI to SDI Converter


When I saw that I repeated the HDMI>SDI converter tests with ATOMOS H2S @1080p50/60, and it now possible to capture HDMI @50/60p using this converter.
Tested with Sony PXW-X70 and MacBookPro HDMI output. FS700 HDMI output @50p doesn't work, however (I don't really care since there is raw mode).
So maybe other cameras and converters might work as well.
 
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I retried the h2s with the a7s and 7q on latest fw. Still didn't work. Mitch special converter still only one that works at least with Sony a7 a7s
 
I have the 7Q+ and it does a great job of DownRes 4k to 1080P30 thru HDMI.:2vrolijk_08:
Even when using ProRes LT the results are much better than anything recorded internally.

For some reason it gave me the option of converting A7s 4k to 1080P60.
Although the mov file shows as 1080P60 in free MediaInfo it is no where the quality I would expect.
Among other things, the frames seem to be interpolated (every other one duplicated).
 
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