Odyssey 7Q 4K Compression

Michael Erlewine

Michael Erlewine

Well-known member
I have not been able to find much information on the 4K compression on the 7Q. How compressed is it, and how does it compare to 4K raw that we could get out of the Sony R5 recorder?
 
Hello Michael,

I think Mister Dan Keaton is very busy at the moment or maybe he is on a well deserved vacation.

I'm sure he will answer our posts as soon as he can/ as soon as it is well implemented and validated by Convergent Design engineers.

On an other note I want 4K RAW on the Odyssey7Q.

I think with enough demand, maybe a bit of pressure on Sony (I was thinking about an online petition) we can manage to get it !

Cheers,
Stephane.
 
Thanks for the note, but my question has to do with the compressed 4K raw they advertise. I would be AMAZED if Sony retracted their restriction on 4K raw, and am not counting on that happening. Anyone have any real information?
 
I don't think Sony will ever release 4K RAW to CD. Maybe after the FS700 has had its run and they have a newer camera. There would be no reason to buy the Sony solution if the Odyssey 7Q could do everything.
 
What about the compressed 4K raw? What are the negatives for that? How much compression. What would we not be happy with it in the 7Q?
 
it won't be compressed raw, but processed (ie baked-in), compressed 4K video in the ProRes codec. haven't heard what the compression ratio is yet. only 2K will remain raw in its encoding to DNG.
 
That helps, but then I wish they would tell us home much compression. I should probably find the bucks to get the R5 and the interface, which is a lot of money.

If the 4K was "good enough," then the 7Q would work. You think they would be showing us what it is by now.
 
I did see that they updated a few details on the website. this is what they say now:
"Sony FS700 Raw: 2K RAW 12-bit up to 240fps,
Compressed 1080p 10-bit YCC up to 60fps (super-sampled from 4K Raw),Compressed 4K YCC 10-bit up to 30fps."
so we know it's debayered 4K in 10-bit... compression unknown. but knowing CD, probably really damn good.
 
That helps too.

2K raw is just that, right?

Compressed 1080p 10-bit YCC... super-sampled? Is super-sampled good? That is better than 8-bit. Anyone tell us more?

Compressed 4K YCC 10-bit.

Say I spend the money for the R5 and the interface from Sony (and cards). What will I be gaining, aside from probably pristine 4K raw?
 
Supersampled from 4K to 2K/1080p is great if done correctly. Very high detail and no aliasing.
YCC = YCrCb which has the same information as RGB 444 (just a different colorspace). YCC 10-bit is full range color sampling:444 vs 422 etc. Once in YCC space, it's fast to output 10-bit ProRes 444, 422, etc. Conversion from YCC 444 to RGB is a fast linear transform.
 
jcs: Thank you. That is encouraging. I imagine they will do the 2K correctly. Am I right that the takeaway (probably) is that the Q7 (which I have on order) will be be good enough that I don't have to spend $11K on the Sony R5, interface, and cards?
 
There's a discussion about the 2K being less than optimal in another thread. I wouldn't count on the 2K being done right until we see actual results. It is not a trivial task to deliver 2K raw from a 4K sensor at full field of view. If I was to bet, I'd bet that the 4K-to-1080p will look noticeably better than the 2K raw, but that is speculation at this point.
 
Barry_Green said:
There's a discussion about the 2K being less than optimal in another thread. I wouldn't count on the 2K being done right until we see actual results. It is not a trivial task to deliver 2K raw from a 4K sensor at full field of view. If I was to bet, I'd bet that the 4K-to-1080p will look noticeably better than the 2K raw, but that is speculation at this point.
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I would def think so to, At least for now. Im not too good at this but I think someone said it isnt as simple as to downsample 4K raw to 2K raw. But one can always hope :)
 
Chris Langer said:
I don't think Sony will ever release 4K RAW to CD. Maybe after the FS700 has had its run and they have a newer camera. There would be no reason to buy the Sony solution if the Odyssey 7Q could do everything.
Click to expand...

That's true, but it's not forbidden to dream ! :smile:

And honestly, I don't think many FS700 owners will buy the Sony solution, it's wrong on so many aspects, IMHO. Rental houses will probably get a couple ones but who wants to invest in such an expensive and bulky combo ?

Plus Sony's solution is 16bit (I know, 12 bits wraped actually).

We need to put the pressure on Sony !
 
Michael Erlewine said:
jcs: Thank you. That is encouraging. I imagine they will do the 2K correctly. Am I right that the takeaway (probably) is that the Q7 (which I have on order) will be be good enough that I don't have to spend $11K on the Sony R5, interface, and cards?
Click to expand...

Reading the CD spec, uncompressed 12-bit 444 is supported (typically RGB) for 2K/1080p. So if the 4k deBayer is high quality, so should the supersampled 2K/1080p. Prores 4444 supports 12-bit, so when they add that option, that looks to be the highest quality and most efficient option (better than RAW 2K in terms of image quality and efficiency). Uncompressed 12-bit 444 is also supported. By the nature of RAW, 2K RAW won't be able to match 4K RAW to 1080p 444 12-bit, so 2K RAW is kind of pointless.
 
jcs said:
Reading the CD spec, uncompressed 12-bit 444 is supported (typically RGB) for 2K/1080p. So if the 4k deBayer is high quality, so should the supersampled 2K/1080p. Prores 4444 supports 12-bit, so when they add that option, that looks to be the highest quality and most efficient option (better than RAW 2K in terms of image quality and efficiency). Uncompressed 12-bit 444 is also supported. By the nature of RAW, 2K RAW won't be able to match 4K RAW to 1080p 444 12-bit, so 2K RAW is kind of pointless.
Click to expand...

I guess 2k can be suitable for stabilizing but yeah otherwise there might not be much of a point. Atleast for me.
 
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I can't wait to see what it can do at 1080p. That is what I am interested in right now. 4K will be nice for when I need it but for most of my stuff, a really nice uncompressed 1080p 444 would be perfect.
 
freshTEA said:
I guess 2k can be suitable for stabilizing but yeah otherwise there might not be much of a point. Atleast for me.
Click to expand...

2K RAW won't provide 2K resolved resolution (will be less, how much less depends on the quality of the deBayer algorithm). Not helpful for post stabilization- the resolution isn't there. That's why CD is doing the 4K deBayer then supersampling down to 2K/HD. High-quality in-camera deBayering isn't as good as post deBayer, however since it's being downsampled to 2K, it has a good chance of resolving close to 2K/HD actual resolution.
 
jcs said:
2K RAW won't provide 2K resolved resolution (will be less, how much less depends on the quality of the deBayer algorithm). Not helpful for post stabilization- the resolution isn't there. That's why CD is doing the 4K deBayer then supersampling down to 2K/HD. High-quality in-camera deBayering isn't as good as post deBayer, however since it's being downsampled to 2K, it has a good chance of resolving close to 2K/HD actual resolution.
Click to expand...

Then I stand corrected :) Thnx for the info
 
jcs said:
By the nature of RAW, 2K RAW won't be able to match 4K RAW to 1080p 444 12-bit, so 2K RAW is kind of pointless.
Click to expand...

HFR, dude. Seems like high frame rates will only be available on Sony externally as 2K RAW bitstream.

So when we need slo-mo at, say, 240fps, we'll have to utilize 2K RAW...
 
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