Nothing from Panny?

[harddrive]

Differences: {between Varicam and 5000}
Varicam does 120 fps @ 1080p vs 60p for the 5000
It does 12-bit 4:4:4
It does Log and Film Rec.
And it wouldn't be much of a Varicam if it didn't do speed ramping.

That's it for now.

Well, as the 5000 is $28k without a viewfinder, I'm a bit surprised to find it doesn't do at least some of those! Which all begs the question of just how much the Varicam will go for, if the 5000 is $28,000 without a viewfinder?

The business man inside me thinks:
There´s a huge 2/3" broadcast market, with regular update cicles who will embrace Pana's announcements at NAB. A total "grey suits" market, with much less emotions and more facts, numbers and most importantly: loyalty.

Grey suits making a purchasing decision out of brand loyalty? I don't think so. And in Europe (certainly for public bodies) when a big contract gets placed it has to be done in a very transparent fashion - the organisation has to be able to show in detail exactly why it went for the equipment and supplier it did. Yes, staying with the same brand may be a valid factor in a decision if it makes sense in terms of compatability/use of existing plant/software compatability etc etc - but loyalty in terms of "we've bought from them before, so we'll do it again", no.

As example, have you seen: http://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/403-bbc-natural-history-unit-to-embrace-4k ? The BBC Natural History Unit has been a big past user of Varicams, but the implications of that article are that if any forthcoming Varicam can't do 4k, they'll go elsewhere.

But it's implications stretch much further than simply being the latest high profile BBC nature documentary. It shows that 4k is now a serious consideration for future-proofing content. It shows that the international market is looking to 4k for blue chip programming. .........And it hints that we're rapidly getting to the tipping point where any broadcaster or production looking to a) buy new camera equipment or b) produce anything of international note will at the very least be thinking carefully about 4k.

Yes this is for the high end ("blue chip") user. If you have a more modest budget it may well not apply. But then the Varicam is likely to be out anyway. I see a market for 2/3" cameras shooting current broadcast formats (at a lower price), and I see a market for 4k 60p cameras with overcranking ability for those who can afford them. But a very expensive camera which won't do 4k? And not available for another year anyway?

Sorry, I don't see many unemotional grey suits being very impressed.

As for those who say "wait until next year", then any business needs cash flow. Every month it waits for "the" product to be available for market is another month of sales lost to competitors, another month of money going to somebody else. Another month of a competitor consolidating their market share. It's no secret that all the big Japanese electronics companies have lost eye-watering amounts of money in the last year or so, Panasonic included. I don't think either they, or the likes of Sony etc are going to fail, but the internal pressure must be on every business department in these companies to be seen to be doing well. Trouble is, it's very easy to get into the vicious circle of reduced revenue, reduced R&D, less new product, reduced total sales and even more reduced revenue. "Just wait until next year" is not the way out of that.

 

[Jon Furtado]

I spoke to several Panny reps on the floor and they said basically there will be no large sensor camera until 2015. And it will be more akin to a Vericam, pricing, size and all. Any insistance on improving the AF100 was met with a bit of an irritated attitude. I was even told by one rep that "if your looking for anything else, I would suggest finding another company/camera."

The whole vibe on the floor was that Panasonic was a disappointment and was going more toward the broadcast market like JVC. They don't intend to compete in cinema with Cannon and Sony.

 

[Gary Huff]

The whole vibe on the floor was that Panasonic was a disappointment and was going more toward the broadcast market like JVC.

Yes, that's exactly what Panasonic needs to do...be more like JVC. :huh:

 

[Jon Furtado]

I think some perspective is needed here: Back in the late 90s, In the "prosumer" range Canon had the XL1, Sony had the VX1000, and Panasonic had....the NV DX100? Not really a contender. But then..in a matter of 4 years Panasonic would release perhaps the most legendary prosumer camera ever -The DVX100. The others followed their 24P lead. Then HDV came, but still... the DVX was arguably better, resolution only matters so much. (Why 4K doesn't matter to me personally as much as a great image) In 2005 Panasaonic released the HVX and blew everyone away again....a "low cost Varicam". Then of course the DSLR thing happened in 2008...and in late 2010 (basically 2011) Panasonic gave many people what they really wanted - the large sensor in an actual video camera body (not costing a small fortune)
Last year Panasonic released a ton of great evolutionary smaller sensor cameras.

The Af100 is only 2 years old...so I just think in this hyper fast world, many people have lost a sense of true perspective.

I would have agreed with you on this before I spoke to the Panny reps at the conference. From chatting with sales reps and engineers, they were completely clueless about the large sensor market. The Japanese engineer acted like he'd never hear of the large sensor game at all! The sales reps were COMPLETELY dismissive. They are ceding the market to Sony, Canon and others. They don't even intend on making a large sensor range any time soon according to them.

Put it this way, when all the other booths were using the words "filmmaking" "cinema" in their product literature and videos, NONE of it was used at Panny's booth. At their dealer party they had a basketball game playing on the huge screen. They don't want to embrace filmmaking.

 

[starcentral]

Hasn't the broadcast market largely been switching from 2/3" to super 35mm size?

As a long time Panasonic lover its a bit disappointing they never stepped into that arena after the AF100. They really seemed to be the only company to actually give the specs and features people wanted at great value and prices. If anyone could have done an awesome super 35mm camera it was them.

 

[Bern Caughey]

2015?!?

If so Panasonic Broadcast has permanently lost me as a customer, & likely I'll never buy another lens from the Consumer division either.

Perhaps Consumer will learn a lesson from Canon EOS & build a more successful motion camera than their Broadcast division ever imagined.

 

[vanvideo]

I would have agreed with you on this before I spoke to the Panny reps at the conference. From chatting with sales reps and engineers, they were completely clueless about the large sensor market. The Japanese engineer acted like he'd never hear of the large sensor game at all! The sales reps were COMPLETELY dismissive. They are ceding the market to Sony, Canon and others. They don't even intend on making a large sensor range any time soon according to them.

Put it this way, when all the other booths were using the words "filmmaking" "cinema" in their product literature and videos, NONE of it was used at Panny's booth. At their dealer party they had a basketball game playing on the huge screen. They don't want to embrace filmmaking.

To be fair, there probably was a March Madness game on. :laugh:

Interesting, as Panny made the first, affordable, large sensor video camera. I remember seeing the AF100 at the 2010 NAB and I was shocked. I saw that little camera, and I knew there would be a flood of similar cameras to follow.
It's sad if Panny abandons the very market they started.

But they sure have some nice 1/3" and 2/3" cameras!

 

[Jon Furtado]

Jan was a bit defensive on the floor when I spoke to her. And I understand, she probably had dozens of people asking the same question on the first day. But there you have it. Panny is pretty much out of the game.

And after going to the Canon booth, they were VERY aggressively courting the Cine market. They were very apt at answering my question's and asking which Cannon camera I liked the most. Lets face it. You'll see Panavision on CNN but not in the cineplex anymore...sigh..

 

[Gary Huff]

And after going to the Canon booth, they were VERY aggressively courting the Cine market. They were very apt at answering my question's and asking which Cannon camera I liked the most. Lets face it. You'll see Panavision on CNN but not in the cineplex anymore...sigh..

Here in Austin, I run into the Canon reps all the time at events and mixers and whatnot. I see a Sony one on occasion, and never Panasonic.

 

[VLance52]

Jan was a bit defensive on the floor when I spoke to her. And I understand, she probably had dozens of people asking the same question on the first day. But there you have it. Panny is pretty much out of the game.

And after going to the Canon booth, they were VERY aggressively courting the Cine market. They were very apt at answering my question's and asking which Cannon camera I liked the most. Lets face it. You'll see Panavision on CNN but not in the cineplex anymore...sigh..

Wow, I'm pretty shocked. Glad I wasn't planning on buying anymore m4/3 glass!

 

[Jon Furtado]

Here in Austin, I run into the Canon reps all the time at events and mixers and whatnot. I see a Sony one on occasion, and never Panasonic.

This pretty much says it all.

 

[Mike Harvey]

Hasn't the broadcast market largely been switching from 2/3" to super 35mm size?...

Depends on how you define "Broadcast". No news stations that I've ever heard of are shooting on S35, and I have a hard time seeing sports shooting S35 either. Considering how far away some of the cameras are at your average football game, the DoF would be nearly impossible to deal with at the far end of the lens. And a S35 servo zoom lens with the same range as a 2/3" ENG lens and have it be parfocal would be unbearably large and expensive.

Panasonic has pretty much cornered the market at the moment in broadcast with their P2 cameras. It sounds like they've become a bit myopic about it. Sad... the AF100 was a near perfect camera for a lot of what I do. With a few minor tweaks, they could have killed the market with an AFxxx.

But it's a business... my AF has a few more years in it, but good to know I don't need to look at m4/3 glass anymore.

 

[SeattleDV]

I don't want 4k... I just want to know that they're going to continue to support m4/3 as a video format. My AF100 with the X lenses is perfect for bulk of what I do. Slap on an updated sensor and AVC-LongG and it becomes a hugely competitive camera. Not everyone needs/wants 4k and Raw, and trying to act like eveyone in the sub-$7k market does is a huge waste of time. At $8k, tack on 4k and P2 and it's still competitive.

If nothing else, not announcing that they're even planning another m4/3 camera is sort of shooting themselves in the foot, as it only helps their consumer division sell more m4/3 lenses.

For Panasonic not to give their existing pro customer base a show of support for m4/3 is appalling. Whatever brand loyalty Panasonic may have developed with the GH2/3 and AF100 may be lost to their competitors. I liked the GH2 very much and I had high hopes for the GH3 or AF100 successor but now I've pre-ordered a BMPC and I've ordered a Nikon V1 for stills. I won't be buying any additional Panasonic lenses or cameras for the foreseeable future and I'll bet I'm not the only consumer who feels more than a little disappointed with Panasonic's lackluster show of support for the pro m4/3 video market which they ironically help create. Seems like the window of opportunity to increase a pro-level market share for Panasonic just slammed shut.

 

[vanvideo]

Wow, I'm pretty shocked. Glad I wasn't planning on buying anymore m4/3 glass!

The BM Pocket Cam uses an m4/3 mount - I think.
I pre-ordered one, and I know next to nothing about m4/3 lenses.

I did find this cool lens guide, though:

http://www.four-thirds.org/en/microft/lens_chart.html

 

[hscully]

Wow, if Jon's perception is correct, and it sounds like it from the reaction on the floor he got, then that's too bad. I am sorry that Panasonic is ceding the big sensor market because I really do like my AF100. As soon as I saw the Sony F5 I thought that if Panasonic made one with those specs, that it would kill.

I have to admit, I really don't like the new Black magic camera because of the paucity of features and the DSLR form factor... no everything! One thing it does bring, and at a great price, is global shutter. That is a big deal that they could bring that in at such a clip.

I'm a little bummed but thanks for the report, Jon... 2015.. jeez.

 

[harddrive]

Panasonic has pretty much cornered the market at the moment in broadcast with their P2 cameras.

That may be true where you work, but it's certainly not true globally. And it's certainly not the case in the UK where XDCAM seens to have become the "new Betacam". As illustration, just look at the last three major camera orders from the BBC. Their main shouldermount is now the PMW500, the handheld for "mainstream" work is the XF305, and they've just put in a very big order with JVC for handhelds for journalists. Common factor in all the purchases, from three different manufacturers, is the XDCAM codec - XDCAM 422 for mainstream, XDCAM EX for news etc.

And that has had a big knock on effect on scores of freelance buying decisions, plus others in the industry. I've no idea what the breakdown is globally, but anecdotally, at large media events, then for "broadcast" cameras I'd guess Sony are in a majority by a very large margin. I certainly don't think Panasonic have "cornered the market" by a long, long way.

I spoke to several Panny reps on the floor and they said basically there will be no large sensor camera until 2015. ............From chatting with sales reps and engineers, they were completely clueless about the large sensor market. The Japanese engineer acted like he'd never hear of the large sensor game at all! The sales reps were COMPLETELY dismissive. They are ceding the market to Sony, Canon and others. They don't even intend on making a large sensor range any time soon according to them.

As far as the reaction at the NAB Panasonic booth, then I suspect it's not a case of WANTING to be dismissive of the large sensor market, neither of really being "clueless" - it's rather a reflection of their company not being financially willing to put in the research and development to bring such to market in the current financial situation. So no wonder you experienced a defensive attitude. I strongly suspect they are only too well aware that other manufacturers are stealing a march with 4k and large sensor - but they can hardly admit that, can they? I'd also take "2015" as a holding statement.......

Remember the AF100 is built largely from pre-existing technology. Originally based on the GH1 chip and processing, but with the GH2 chip incorporated at a later date. As such it's not that expensive to bring to market - not compared to designing a dedicated chip optimised for video. It was a clever idea at the time, but unfortunately for Panasonic their rivals brought out superior alternatives very soon after.

But regarding the products they ARE bringing out, then the question has to be how they will fit in the market. Why on earth is the HPX600 single chip, for example! Why such a mystery surrounding the specifications and pixel count of that? Up against the PMW350 (it's closest rival) they may have been able to argue "superior codec" with some justification, even if an inferior front end, but that won't be true up against the PMW400.

 

[VLance52]

The BM Pocket Cam uses an m4/3 mount - I think.
I pre-ordered one, and I know next to nothing about m4/3 lenses.

I did find this cool lens guide, though:

http://www.four-thirds.org/en/microft/lens_chart.html

I've been shooting m4/3 for the last 3 years, ever since the GH1 hack. I'm simply saying if m4/3 is on it's way out, then I'm not going to invest further $ into it. I love my m4/3 glass (SLR Magic 12mm 1.6 & SLR Magic 35mm 1.4), was planning to buy SLR Magic 23mm 1.7 Hyperprime but will now hold off. The BMC Pocket looks cool, but I just bought a GH3 & was hoping for pro GH camera to compete w/ Canon & Sony. Looks like I'll be going s35 from here on hopefully future proofing my lenses.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

That may be true where you work, but it's certainly not true globally. And it's certainly not the case in the UK where XDCAM seens to have become the "new Betacam". As illustration, just look at the last three major camera orders from the BBC. Their main shouldermount is now the PMW500, the handheld for "mainstream" work is the XF305, and they've just put in a very big order with JVC for handhelds for journalists. Common factor in all the purchases, from three different manufacturers, is the XDCAM codec - XDCAM 422 for mainstream, XDCAM EX for news etc.

I was talking with a friend who still does some freelance news shooting….he owns a Pana AJ-HDX900 and a 160. He said every call lately the producers want XDcam. He loves his pana cameras but has an XDcam on order.
I still shoot a few things with my HVX but producers want ProRes files. I know - I know - I still give them the P2 content but they always call with "what is this??" I did a shoot with my GH2 the other day using my
Zoom for audio. I gave the client 1080 24p Prores files and they were thrilled with the quality.

 

[LyleGorch]

I see a lot of Panasonic ENG cameras in South America, but I'm pretty sure Globo in Brasil is big on Sony and Globo is huge huge huge. Canon is nipping at everyone's heels in the ENG market.

This is just a very conservative business position on the part of company under serious financial strain. The work Panasonic has been doing in codecs and the infrastructure to support those developments is big and important stuff. You really can't blame a responsible business with obligations to shareholders to jump into the quagmire of digital-cinema cameras, which a lot of people describe as some sort of race to the bottom.

 

[harddrive]

I was talking with a friend who still does some freelance news shooting….he owns a Pana AJ-HDX900 and a 160. He said every call lately the producers want XDcam.

Out of interest, which part of the world is he based in?

I still shoot a few things with my HVX but producers want ProRes files.

The thing I've found is that for such as news, there is a general request for 35Mbs - it's considered fully acceptable (within Europe) for "journalism", and it means it can be shot to an SDHC card and just handed over. That aspect of the workflow becomes like the days of tape. Shoot, hand over media, forget. And that's true either directly with the handheld JVC cameras such as the BBC have bought, or a PMW500 with an adaptor.

Which is ironic - it's certainly not what Sony intended, and happened originally in spite of them. Yet it's become a big factor as establishing one flavour of XDCAM heavily as the main de facto standard.