Noob needs help with GH1

[neven11]

Hello dvxusers.

I'm very grateful for having access to such a community of professionals. I have never owned a SLR or a DSLR. My GH1 one is the first endeavor into capturing some great content. Please forgive me in advance that I'm not down with the lingo or understand what my new camera is truly capable of.

My background is in interactive marketing and open source app development, and almost all of the time I am provided or purchase content to use for my designs and projects. I am sure I've probably used content from some of the users here, if anyone has posted content to iStockphoto.

Though I've been involved with some high-end video (marketing) productions, I've never been behind the camera, unless it was for something personal. I am very comfortable in Premiere, FCP, and AE for composite work. I know compression and transcoding. I've been using QuickTime since version 3.

That said, I have just learned that I bought the camera after Panasonic updated the firmware to 1.34. So I am SOL when it comes to hacking it right now or maybe even ever. Even still, I am trying to be happy with the GH1 and I hope to take some great photos and video with it –while living in China for the next year or so.

So down to business. I am sure there is a term for what I'm seeing in my video that I've captured and keep capturing in low-light situations. I've read some discussions here about "Vertical Lines", and this is what I'm talking about.

From Ben_B
"Those lines are part of the way the CMOS sensor operates. They will occur in areas that are 3 stops underexposed. Really dark areas (near true black) or properly exposed areas are unaffected. These lines are more noticeable when a high ISO is used to brighten under-exposed areas.

You can still shoot high-contrast if you do it right. This camera may be good low light but that is no excuse to take it into crazy conditions where you would not dream of taking another camera."
​

I've read some people stating that this goes away with time. I've left my GH1 on for 2 days straight with the lens cap on and I see no improvement with this effect.

Some people say to use Light Kits or get better lenses. If this is true, okay, but that kinda sucks since I just laid down all this cash for a camera that I've shot better video with on a 5 year old Sony DV cam in lower light situations. Sure it's not HD, but really?… the chip on my old Sony DCR handicam outdoes the GH1 in lowlight?

I've tried several settings. Variations and variations of settings. Adjusted ISO etc. I still always see this effect in anything other than daylight or extremely well lit areas. Is my camera defective? Is the GH1 kit lens not for low-light anything?

This ONLY happens when I'm shooting video. Photos look great in the Same lighting conditions. It happens using 720p Motion Jpeg, and also when Shooting with 1080i in AVCHD.

I'm pretty sure my noob status is probably the cause here, because I have seen some absolutely beautiful footage on vimeo with this camera in very low-light conditions. That footage was the reason I bought this camera and not a 7D. Though, that footage was with the Hack that I can't use. So I don't know if this is fixed with the hack I can't use, or if indeed, this is just me not using the camera correctly. If so, I would ask that some pros here to make a list of where and how I should start to fix or learn how to fix this problem. Perhaps list some sample settings to try?

For now, I seem to be using my Nexus One more than my GH1, because I never get vertical lines in ANY lighting situation. And the hack I have on my N1 produces better 720p video than my GH1 at the moment. Frankly, looking at my GH1 makes me sick when I think about taking it out to use it for video. :angry:

Here is what I shot the other night as a sample if you are interested in seeing the problem.
720p Mjpeg Stock.

(screen cap from QT) CLICK HERE FOR FULL RES SAMPLE

Here's a short original video sample.

GH1 Vertical Lines - Low-Light ZIP

You can see still photos from the same lighting situation and moment here.

Thanks for taking the time to read about this issue. I hope that I can solve this before I have to ship the GH1 back stateside for my friend to put this on Ebay so I can get a Canon. Jackie Chan is everywhere in Beijing trying to sell me a 7D and I'm about to give in. Without the hack, and horror stories about Panasonic repair and support, I don't need anymore misery with this purchase. I already suffer from the loose lens mount and bad lugs like so many others.

-Daniel

 

[MR Fanny]

that is banding unfortunately. the kit lens is terrible for low light full stop. Whatever good footage you have seen in low light is 99% shot with a faster lens. It does make a world of difference. The hack hasn't really changed the look that you get from the camera, just codec reliability. that said if you want bulletproof the gh1 probably isn't for you then.

 

[neven11]

Mr Fanny thanks for the confirmation and the actual term "banding". It is a big help to hear that in the direction of my exact experience. Sounds like I need a new lens for low light. At least that is something I will be able to use with a replacement camera. Can you recommend a lens that woud get me going without breaking the bank?

Also could you please recommend a bulletproof camera for a noob that is sub $1500? How do you feel about the 7D? The reviews are great from what I've read, and I wouldn't have to worry about de-interlacing.

 

[north heart]

An old Canon FD 50mm 1.8 withan adapter should be yours for about £100. If you go faster than f1.8, the inexperienced may have a problem in keeping good focus.

General underexposure is definitely not the way to go, better high contrast shoots. Also, while learning what settings get the best out of the camera, also do try some of the night time AEs, they sometimes do a reasonable job of controlling the noise. Also play with the different 'film stocks' and noise reductions. Keep away from high ISOs over say 800
With a fast lens, I very much doubt the cams you mention have a better low light capability.

 

[the doc]

I feel your pain and have posted about very similar issues.

Thing is... i bought into this under exposure causation stuff before - but last night I filmed my babies face in moderately well lit room with what i would count as a 'fast' lens (the panasonic pancake). It was at iso 200, max aperture, 1/50 sec, and (imp0rtantly) the exposure assist bar on screen told me that it was perfectly exposed.

There was STILL banding visible on flat colour surfaces.

I too am dissapointed... and can't fathom how some people manage to get better results.

I don't think ISO 200 is high.... the shot looked well exposed and the camera told me it was well exposed.. but it still had this defect.... grrrr.... what am i meant to do? I shouldn't have to shell out a grand on a 0.95F lens!

 

[MR Fanny]

Also could you please recommend a bulletproof camera for a noob that is sub $1500? How do you feel about the 7D? The reviews are great from what I've read, and I wouldn't have to worry about de-interlacing.

Thats what I was hinting at, for a $700 camera(body only) there is only so much one could expect=) That said, I myself would have expected more in terms of this banding issue, and like you and many others would much rather have grain noise than this ugly fixed pattern. It is also bugging me in the photo's that i take. I don't understand how panasonic can release a camera with this obvious annoyance. From what I have seen the G1 and GF1 don't suffer from it or should i say not as acutely as with the GH1?

Can't personally comment on the 7D but a quick google shows that it can suffer from banding too, though to what extent i'm not to sure. Also talk of a simple firmware improving on the issue. It has been said that banding is evident in all dslrs though, some worse than others. have a play with one in a shop and shoot high iso underexposed and see if that is acceptable to you. I wish pana would fix it with another update.

 

[neven11]

It is also bugging me in the photo's that i take. I don't understand how panasonic can release a camera with this obvious annoyance.

Sounds like a defect to me. But what's worse is...

As a person who has bought everything from TVs to Microwaves to Digital Players from Panasonic, I have been a fan or their brand for over 30 years. To me it always meant quality. I have never had to deal with their company for support on a product as they always seemed to work. I had a Panasonic TV that lasted over 18 years, and still worked the day I sold it in a garage sale.

I did a considerable amount of research when I got this camera. In fact this camera was a wedding gift from my wife. She said, you pick it, and I buy it. So I wanted to be sure I'd be happy with it, just like I'm happy with my lovely wife. (<----- who's sittin' right here next to me. :kiss

It's not the money, since it's all the same cash now that we're hitched. :laugh: But still, the situation is all the more painful when she has seen me fussing about it over the last few days when I found out about the unhackable firmware on my version.

As I mentioned, I am a fan of Open Source anything. The fact that Panasonic has not only refused to talk/acknowledge the hard work put in by the GH1 community with the hack, and furthermore isn't releasing their latest version of the firmware has made me more pissed than this (defective) banding issue. To stop innovation that is being created by motivated people who try to improve your products is probably the worst thing a company can do to it's customers, especially loyal ones. Especially when it caused some to actually buy the camera over another brand. In my book it is unforgivable.

Banding issue fixed or not, at this point, they've shown their true colors and I vow to never buy another product with their brand on it unless they can show me that they do believe and appreciate Open Source, and Open Ideas. I encourage others to do the same.

Someone @ Panasonic needs to watch:
Dan Cobley: What physics taught me about marketing Dan Cobley is a marketing director at Google, where he connects customers and businesses, helping both navigate digital space to find what they need.

It's a new world where voices matter. Even in a small forum like this. #Panasonic and @Panasonic, threads like these on twitter if you use twitter.

An old Canon FD 50mm 1.8 withan adapter should be yours for about £100. If you go faster than f1.8, the inexperienced may have a problem in keeping good focus.

£100 Is in the ballpark, and I'm glad it's a Canon lens you're recommending. Thanks North Heart.

I'm going to give this some time and see what Panasonic does. Otherwise, already with the wife's blessing I'm ebaying this camera on principle and hope that I can find a quality product & brand worthy of my money.

Next stop is the TWiT network, where Leo Laporte (who has a hacked GH1 and is another reason I purchased the GH1) and friends will tweet and yell loudly of Panasonic's misguided decisions.

 

[swyzlstyx]

Hello dvxusers.

...I've left my GH1 on for 2 days straight with the lens cap on and I see no improvement with this effect...

That explains a lot right there...most everything in your post shows internet forum craziness gone wild.

The "hack" doesn't magically transform a bad video into a Hollywood movie. Most of those awesome looking videos you see posted on Vimeo aren't the result of the "hack", but the result of knowing how to properly operate a camera, lens selection, and understanding lighting. All the hack does is reduce some compression muddiness in highly detailed scenes. In low light, it might not even change the compression at all!

It's not a "defect" from Panasonic. Whenever you ask a camera to shoot in the dark...especially with a super slow kit lens...something has to give. You say it's worse than your old DV cams? Put them to the test...put identical footage from both cams up on the timeline. Sometimes I get frustrated with footage as well...and need a remider of just how much better this cam is. The GH1 is cleaner and produces a better image...banding and ISO noise and all...than any prosumer 1/3" camcorder...DV or HDV...than I've ever owned in 20 years of shooting weddings and home videos. I was unhappy with my GH1 right out of the box as well...until I learned how to use it.

Keep in mind, the GH1 is a $650 still photography camera that requires a lens suited to the particular scene or photo one is attempting to capture. Video can be even more difficult, since you're dealing with a much more limited range of shutter speed to works with.

If you're looking for an amazing walk-around home video camera kit for WELL under $1500, pick up a GH1 body and a Lumix 20m f1.7. No "hack" required. The fast lens will minimize noise. Autofocus will nail your subject FAST (just don't leave it in continuous auto-focus...it will wander like all video cameras do). And at 20mm it's a good wide-ish/standard focal length on the GH1...perfect for general video shooting.

Good luck with it!

 

[neven11]

That explains a lot right there...most everything in your post shows internet forum craziness gone wild.

Man that was a comforting post to read. I am a bit more encouraged now than I was before.

A colleague of mine back home just bought the 7D and shot 1/3 of a wedding with it and he said the footage was incredible. I can't agree more with his statement. He produces some of the best wedding stuff I've seen.

FTR. I'm aware of what the hack is/was for. I didn't really feel the hack would change anything about the banding. Though I have actually read that from a few people, who were quickly corrected. As you said, "forum craziness".

The biggest reason I wanted the hack was so I wouldn't need to de-interlace. It's a pain in the arse and degrades quality. I have the fortunate opportunity to be going to some once in a lifetime places in the next few months, and I want to get the best quality content I can get.

Even still, Panasonic's decision to stifle open source innovation is unacceptable to me and will prevent me from supporting them in the future....

Glad to hear it's the man and not the cam. I'll be getting a lens in the next few days, (not panasonic) and seeing what I can do with it. Sounds like I need to read up a bit more on the theory, and get some pointers from some pros in the area. I have a meet up in a few days with some english speaking folk who are more experienced than I. I'll report back when I actually have some content to be proud of and I can give this camera some props. Otherwise, I'll be reporting back... well, I'm sure you can guess.

Thanks for taking the time swyzlstyx.

 

[pjsssss]

First, congrats on the wedding! I was lucky enough to kind of stumble on this camera just after the hack had taken place and, like many, anguished over whether to buy it or not and then had to put in MAJOR time reading every single thread here about it. And it is crucial that you get a good feel on the different patches and what you need. I am still learning some of them. I also put in a ton of time to see what people were using for lenses and then spent some money on getting them (they seem to be going up in price all the time. A testament to how DSLRs are reviving a lot of old manual lenses)
Here is a quick video thrown together right before I had to catch a plane out of town, so it is a bit rough. http://vimeo.com/14782234

The one thing that I will say that I have not seen discussed before is how inundated Panasonic would be if they released something in the realm of this hack to the general public. After some of these lock up problems or people not getting the camera to just work with a simple point and shoot they would have so many support calls or returns that it would be a huge mess. I am sure they have even had a calls from people that have done the hack and had problems now. They need to be able to release something that will work every time right out of the box.

I certainly am not in favor of the unhackable cameras and do not condone their action or silence intentional or not, but I do understand it from a business standpoint.

 

[neven11]

Thanks for the congrats. That video was awesome and gives me even more hope.

I would argue that anyone that hacks a camera and then goes to the manufacturer is more and a noob. May qualify them as a "tool" to put it mildly. Even still, HTC has accepted hacked (rooted) Nexus Ones back and repaired them.

All Panasonic need do is to say you Void The Warranty if you do hack it. End of discussion. From your standpoint, I can see that it would be a support nightmare for them to support hacks. As you seem to understand as well, that isn't what I am and others are asking for.

Though dealing with 1080i is going to be an unnecessary burden. As more time goes on, I am pretty sure Pana will be less likely to release the latest 1.34 version of the FW, so it too can be hacked.

I have some work to do to figure out this lighting issue. Make no mistake, I'll figure out the magic sauce. Looking at this adaptor, and looking at this lens to start.

One things for sure, I am a lucky guy to have such a capable camera for being a noob. It's time I quit complaining and get out there and create something meaningful. Thanks to everyone for the comments and support. I'll be watching you on Vimeo.