Noisy picture-Shooting in Casino

W

wolfwill23

Member
Hello,

I am shooting in a casino in Las Vegas. It's an older one and not that well lit. I just got my HVX today and went to shoot some B-Roll. I shot in 720p, 24N with a 1/24 shutter, 6db gain, and the gamma set to cine-D (or whatever it is).

I couldn't wait to get home and view the footage on my LCD TV. However, after hooking my camera straight up to the TV via component, I was disappointed to find out that the picture was VERY noisy. The blacks are more of a snow and any time there was not a well lit area, the picture looks pretty bad. I shot some footage of the sign outside and the night sky almost looks like day time because there is so much noise.

Any suggestions?

Thanks guys and gals.
 
1/24 shutter is bad. It will be all smeary. Typically the shutter should be 1/2x the frame rate. 24p = 1/48 shutter. Though for 24p I can go down to 1/36 and it still looks fine, can flicker a bit in low light though.

As far as the noise, part of the problem could be the LCD TV. For example, the 24in Dell LCD is a gret PC monitor but kinda crap for HVX monitoring.
 
Thanks for the info. So you're saying I should adjust the shutter to 1/48 and not watch it on my LCD TV? Any other tips? Gamma settings perhaps?
 
Don't use Cinelike D for low light areas. Cinelike D is the noisiest setting and you really won't need the extra bit of lattitude it provides in dimly lit environments (it's more meant for harsh sunlight). I also would suggest NOT using any gain. Any gain at all is going to give you a lot of noise. You may need to boost the signal but why not do it in post where you can spend hours getting it just right? Also, set the master pedistal down so you get deep, rich blacks. You can also drop the black levels in post if you want (DVCPro is very good with CC).

As for the monitor issue, I like to go ahead and export uncompressed TIFFs from my timeline to get the best look at how my image is turning out. I can then take those into photoshop and look at them under a magnifying glass. It's better then using an HD monitor for everything.
 
Which gamma would you rec? I am trying to get a 70's Vegas look. Also, what is the master pedistal? (Sorry, just got camera today!)

Thank you for your help.
 
Set the GAIN to 0db, and see if you can just add light or shoot creativly. setting the GAIN up is naturally going to add tons of noise to the picture, whether its well lit or not.
 
Shooting with your new HVX200 using a 1/24th shutter is NOT "bad!" It's only "bad" if you have motion in your shot. Employing a 1/24th shutter speed is fine for lock-offs of static subjects (or at least subjects that aren't moving too rapidly). Shooting at 1/24th gives you an extra stop of sensitivity. As others have recommended, I would avoid using the gain setting at anything but 0dB, if you possibly can. To just "add light" or to say, just "light it right" often isn't an option to locations you have no control over. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of options in this case . . .

1. Shoot static, tripod-mounted shots at 1/24th.
2. Set gain to 0dB.
3. Use a less-noise prone preset (search other threads for recommendations).
4. Lower your pedastal (master black level) to make your blacks "blacker" (to in turn, make the noise in the blacks "blacker" and hopefully less objectionable). Or make your blacks "blacker" in post, as suggested.
 
When I first got my HVX I was so anxious to shoot with it I don't even think I bothored to figure out how to change the scene files so I think you were more patient than me!!

Here's my .02....

Read the HVX book. Then put it under your pillow and let your mind absorb it overnight. Then read it again. Then get some of the scene files off the included CD and see which one's look like they'd be good for you. After trying them, read the HVX book and wonder how some of these guys can ever shoot when there are so many settings you can use to set up your shot just the way you want it!!
 
I am of a different school of thought - the noise just isnt an issue - what is more of an issue is giving up the look you want in an excess effort to get rid of noise - if you line the cine-D look then shoot with it - the noise will not distract a viewer if you are using the scene file that works for the look you are going for and have a compelling story. On the other hand you will detract from your story by going on a single minded mission to reduce noise.

its video - its a 1/3 chip - it will have noise - just like film has grain - embrace the technology

Of course - the advice everyone is giving here is great if your priority really is on the noise
 
Thanks for all the tips. As this is a working casino and a documentary, I do not have the luxury of lighting it. I have what's there with the exception of follow light or an on-board camera light.

I am shooting today Day 1 today and will let you know how it goes.

I'm setting the pedastel to -10, gamma to B Press.

I'll be sure to read the manual more closely to try and find more tips.

Thanks.
 
wolfwill23 said:
Which gamma would you rec? I am trying to get a 70's Vegas look. Also, what is the master pedistal? (Sorry, just got camera today!)

Thank you for your help.
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Experiment. I think Cinlike V or B Press look the best in low light. As far as pedistal, you really need to do a little test shooting. I go as high as -10 if I really want to squash any noise and have pure blacks but that can be overkill.
 
Rezfactor said:
Shooting with your new HVX200 using a 1/24th shutter is NOT "bad!" It's only "bad" if you have motion in your shot. Employing a 1/24th shutter speed is fine for lock-offs of static subjects (or at least subjects that aren't moving too rapidly). Shooting at 1/24th gives you an extra stop of sensitivity

1. Shoot static, tripod-mounted shots at 1/24th.
Click to expand...

Unless you are taping paint dry, chances are there will be motion in the shot. 1/24 shutter makes my eyes hurt, it looks like poo...the gooey kind...I strongly discourage using it.
 
If there was a "perfect storm" for making grainy/noisy footage, it would be shooting in an underlit casino with gain on and cinelike-D. That's about the ultimate combination for noise.

What can you do about it? First, choose B.Press Gamma, it's the least-noisy. Second, set the gain on 0dB. Third, get some light in there! No light = noise, light = less noise. Don't use gain instead of light. You don't get something for nothing, and the price of gain = noise.
 
OK, that -10 on the pedistal was a bit too much. Leaving the other settings the same and changing that to -5. I'll report back.

Also, as I stated before, there are few to no lighting options in this environment. It's a working casino. What's there is there. Also, to make matters more difficult, it's doc. So when the subject moves, we move. No placing lights and asking them to hit marks. It's observational.

Thanks again everybody.
 
You cannot get quality footage without adequate light. That's an inviolable rule. There's always a way to get it. Get a p.a. with a battery belt and a LitePanel on a stick. Have 'em follow the subject around, and teach 'em with hand signals where to stand with the light.
 
wolfwill23 said:
OK, that -10 on the pedistal was a bit too much. Leaving the other settings the same and changing that to -5. I'll report back.

Also, as I stated before, there are few to no lighting options in this environment. It's a working casino. What's there is there. Also, to make matters more difficult, it's doc. So when the subject moves, we move. No placing lights and asking them to hit marks. It's observational.

Thanks again everybody.
Click to expand...

Once again, go to the location or one with similar lighting before the even and try a lot of different settings. Barry's idea about a PA is the best solution but, if you can't get another guy, you just have to try a bunch of different things and see what works. It's the same way photographers bracket exposures. See what combination of masterpedistal, gamma, color matrix (cinelike, while the best looking is also the noisiest), ect are going to work for you. Tests are good and it's all about what you want. I hate a 1/24 shudder but you might be OK with it.

I have one setting that I use in really low light where I lower the shudder to around 350d (really open), use B-press gamma, and finally lower my frame rate to 12 fps (getting you even more exposure time). Then, in post, I double every frame so it gets back up to 24 fps. Now, this makes things brighter with a lot less noise. The motion is kind of a compromise. The 350d shutter means there will be a ton of image trails that make things too smooth and videoish. On the other hand, droping the frame rate to 12 fps then doubling it counteracts that effect and makes it feel more like a choice. Everything has strobbing, surreal quality. I'm not sure if you want that for a doc but it has its uses.
 
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