Noise Solution Testing

Noise test quick shots.
I am really slammed time wise but I managed to slap together these comparisons to go along with my half-arsed attempt to explain how to reduce noise on the HVX.

http://www.holditnow.com/hvx

If you click on the pictures you can see a full rez DVCPROHD 720p60 clip that has been cropped to just a noise problem area. Loop the clips to get full effect.

I would strongly suggest to anyone shooting dramatic lighting to TEST TEST TEST because you are always on the edge of noise and banding disaster when lighting low key.
 
Thanks! The noise is still in both examples, but the top looks much better. Can you share with us what you did in post and how far you had to adjust?
 
I used FCP Color Corrector
Highlights-162
Mid-64
Black--21
Saturation-61

Yes the noise is always going to be there but in the top example it is contained more. In the bottom (5.6) shot it is through out the entire shot and the grain is blobby. It may be hard to tell from the samples.

With more tinkering with the lights and post I could make it a little better I just didn't have time to finesse the shot last night. So this is a really fast set up in the samples.

The trouble you will run into is BANDING when pushing it in post. I think it comes from the compression artifacts. I will try pushing my samples using uncompressed footage and see if it handles the adjustments better. More testing is definitely in order. My next full test will be to light an entire room with actors. Stay tuned.
 
Thanks for those samples, holditnowfilms.

The bottom sample looks positively filthy compared to the top. There's obviously quite a bit of DSP enhancement in areas of lower exporsure with this camera.

It really is a shame there's no -3dB option. I'd gladly lose sensitivity to at least have the option of a quieter image.
 
Alex Leith said:
It really is a shame there's no -3dB option. I'd gladly lose sensitivity to at least have the option of a quieter image.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see the -3db option, too. I wonder if it could be added in a firmware update?
(I know how camera manufacturers love hearing customers asking for firmware updates):)
 
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Boy how I hate to jump into the mix so late but I have a few serious questions about the noise. I have had my HVX for almost a month now and have been fiddling with high def on my mac mini. I can only view the images on my monitor and not on a hi-def tv. So far I have been happy with it as I could not see any serious noise issues.

However that just changed. I just bought a 28" CRT Hi definitiion television and the image is stunning when viewing HDTV cable channels. So I am sure that this is not a problem with the TV. I am seeing a very good amount of blue dancing noise in what I would consider "moderately lit" areas of the shot. It can be downright distracting at times. But that sounds like what you have all been describing.

I am seeing a second issue that can only be described as vertical lines through the image. In certain scenes that are well lit I can see what appears to be a grid of vertical lines that are almost transparent but not quite. When panning you can clearly see that they are locked to the camera. Almost like you have a filter on the lens that adds them. It is very subtle but very noticable. I was shooting against a white wall and where the light falls off you can see it everytime. The only time I really can't see it is when the entire scene is illuminated very well. If I were making a dramatic piece and wanted to do an X-files type shot of flashlights in a dark room it would look horrible.

I need to know if anyone is seeing this also. To help those of you that remember, this looks almost exactly like the problem with the very early XL1 units that had a defect. Mike Pappas knows all about this as he was the discoverer of it on that camera.

I could try to post some images but from viewing the footage at full size on my Mac 21" monitor I cannot see them...so it may be of little help. Tomorrow I will see about pulling these images into Photoshop and see if I can see it there.

Thanks
 
Unfortunately, not. But IMHO besides my limited experience as non DVX-owner and other posted opinions, I think that with HD the noise increases. Or ar least it's noticeable sensitive.
 
holditnowfilms said:
Yes the noise is always going to be there but in the top example it is contained more.
Click to expand...
Did you try any reducing noise program like these ones -- Sproketz posted first and John Benton helped to this compiled set:

Grain Surgery (now included in After Effects)
link?

Composite Toolkit
link?

Algolith
http://www.pluginz.com/product/12124?

Key Correct Pro
link?

Nattress
http://www.nattress.com/Products/set2/GFBMFilt.htm

If you want follow the threads where these links were posted, you're welcome:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=439923&postcount=31
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=46890


Or do you think to try yet? What's your guess/bet regarding its efficiency and your noise solution testing experience?
 
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icicle22 said:
I just bought a 28" CRT Hi definitiion television and the image is stunning when viewing HDTV cable channels. So I am sure that this is not a problem with the TV. I am seeing a very good amount of blue dancing noise in what I would consider "moderately lit" areas of the shot. It can be downright distracting at times. But that sounds like what you have all been describing.
Click to expand...
That's odd -- and actually backwards. Most people are reporting that noise is less visible on a CRT, and that it's LCDs that really make noise more noticeable.

Check the setup on your TV too -- my Sony came with super-mega-enormous-absurdly-high edge enhancement. HD broadcasts looked good but SD was nearly unwatchable. Once I reeled the edge enhancement down to a rational level SD started looking good. If you haven't set up your TV, you might be seeing edge-enhanced sharpening of any noise in the image.


I am seeing a second issue that can only be described as vertical lines through the image. In certain scenes that are well lit I can see what appears to be a grid of vertical lines that are almost transparent but not quite. When panning you can clearly see that they are locked to the camera. Almost like you have a filter on the lens that adds them. It is very subtle but very noticable. I was shooting against a white wall and where the light falls off you can see it everytime.
I need to know if anyone is seeing this also.
Click to expand...
I'm staring at the monitor nearly every day, and I have to say this is the first I've heard of anything like this. Evin and I both have 34" Sony CRTs, and we certainly never saw anything like this on his set, nor have I seen it on mine...
 
Noise filter solutions are an added expense which sux. Anyone used them? How long do they take? Would it take a month to filter an entire move or are they fast?
 
holditnowfilms said:
Noise filter solutions are an added expense which sux. Anyone used them? How long do they take? Would it take a month to filter an entire move or are they fast?
Click to expand...

I've used the Boris FX noise filter... It's very slow to render and the results aren't particularly brilliant.
 
1/2" chip will it be noiseless enough, NBCshooter?

Specially if with the Sony's noiseless properties?
 
Emanuel said:
1/2" chip will it be noiseless enough, NBCshooter?
Click to expand...
Don't know. Panasonic lent me an AG-DVC200 1/2" 3CCD shoulder-mount DVCPRO25 camera to play with a few years ago. In broad daylight, it was noisier than I would've liked. I used my standard test. Shoot some blue sky in the daytime. Of course, the DVC200 was much cleaner than my 1/3" Sony VX2000, but significantly more noisy than a 2/3" BVW400A Betacam.

I'm actually leaning HEAVILY toward buying the standard-def DSR450, just for its big 2/3" CCDs and 65dB SNR spec. But, if I buy the Sony PDW-F330, I'll actually more likely be able to rent the crap out of it to NBC (they like using "big" 24P/HD cameras for "special" shoots). The show I shoot for won't even care that it's NOT an HDW-F900 HDCAM (and actually will prefer the rate and the no-hassle downconvert over the HDCAM). And the powers that be would be too bored with the explanation of the differences between an F330 and an F900. So, from a business standpoint, the F330 makes the most sense. However, for my personal work, I may actually be happier with the DSR450.
 
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Barry_Green said:
That's odd -- and actually backwards. Most people are reporting that noise is less visible on a CRT, and that it's LCDs that really make noise more noticeable.

Check the setup on your TV too -- my Sony came with super-mega-enormous-absurdly-high edge enhancement. HD broadcasts looked good but SD was nearly unwatchable. Once I reeled the edge enhancement down to a rational level SD started looking good. If you haven't set up your TV, you might be seeing edge-enhanced sharpening of any noise in the image.



I'm staring at the monitor nearly every day, and I have to say this is the first I've heard of anything like this. Evin and I both have 34" Sony CRTs, and we certainly never saw anything like this on his set, nor have I seen it on mine...
Click to expand...

Barry,
If I could upload a few .mxf files that show this issue would you be able to download them and copy to a P2 card and test on you CRT? I am praying and hoping this is an issue with the TV itself and not with the camera.....I can live with the noise but I cannot stand seeing these lines. They drive me crazy and really harken back to the Xl1 issues I used to have.

Thanks
 
Sure, post 'em. Send the whole folder structure though (i.e., make sure that you don't just send the video MXF, but send the whole "contents" and the "lastclip.txt" file.
 
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