Pit Bulls have no more aggressive tendencies than any other dog. Cocker Spaniels are actually the dog that bites more people nationwide than any other. Akita's and Chows are actually far more aggressive and dangerous around kids. They're just not nearly as popular with completely irresponsible people thus you don't here about tragedies like this happening with them. I've been around Pits for the last ten years and rescued countless of them. Many of my closest friends also have rescued quite a few. You can look a dog in the eye at the pound and know where it's at mentally. Some can't be saved because of the abuse they suffered (this applying to many dogs in inner-city pounds) and they will never be safe around children, but that's not born into them as most people assume as they are. Bull Terrier breeds are actually great family dogs. Any dog that doesn't get affection and socialization will revert to a wild state. This woman put her child in the cellar and jammed the door shut. I'm sure the home wasn't a good social environment for any living thing.
No Words Adequate.
- Thread starter David Jimerson
- Start date
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
I confess I cannot be sure to what the facts are regarding the aggressiveness of Pit Bulls. However; I read where there have been studies that show that the Pit Bull Terrier tends to be more aggressive towards other dogs than most species. Now let's take children say under 12 years old; you know, smaller and not at all 'dominant' to the animal. I don't know; makes for a bad mix in my opinion. Again, I don't know the facts; but if I had to put money on it I'd bet on the Pit being a more aggressive animal by nature than the Poodle.
You think I'm leaving my 5 year old in a room by himself with a Pit Bull? ~ HA! IN fact; I
think anyone who has small chlidren and BIG dogs and leaves them unattended are irresponsible parents.
You think I'm leaving my 5 year old in a room by himself with a Pit Bull? ~ HA! IN fact; I
think anyone who has small chlidren and BIG dogs and leaves them unattended are irresponsible parents.
nullphonic
Well-known member
You cannot circumvent thousands and thousands of years of instinct. Food, mating, defense. No matter how well trained or socialized any animal is (including humans) instinct kicks in at some point and instinct is obviously a complete and usually violent autopilot.
Someone attacks or threatens a loved one? You “should” chill out and call the cops however the uncontrollable instinct kicks in and you kick the living sh*t out of the perpetrator or worse (prisons are full of people who “snapped” and over-retaliated to a threat). Siegfrieds’ Tigers, the “always gentle 20 year old elephant” that rampaged and killed 3, etc, etc, etc. I’m constantly amazed at how arrogant some animal owners are.
The following is NOT a defense of this lady, what she did prior to the incident is criminal imo i.e. she new there was a problem (a pit bull in heat with a potentially predatory male and a small child, FREAKING IDIOT, she may as well have poured gas on the kid and started flicking matches at him). However, regarding her comments, I have seen people in extreme traumatic event induced disassociative states and they say and do things that are completely bizarre, inappropriate and third-person. (Denial to the point of mental illness)
We had an acquaintance whose fiancé was helping him move. She went to move a shotgun and it went off and essentially blew her chest out, dead instantly. This guy was the closest thing to a real zombie I’ve ever seen. Soulless dead eyes, physical appearance of someone 15 years older than he actually was and his behavior and comments were completely bizarre and inappropriate in some cases. They eventually had to sedate the guy to the point of a drooling comatose.
They’ve GOT to press charges on this idiot. She’s already admitted to a blatant form of child endangerment (“the male dog was acting aggressive to the point I locked my kid in a basement”, COME ON!!!)
Someone attacks or threatens a loved one? You “should” chill out and call the cops however the uncontrollable instinct kicks in and you kick the living sh*t out of the perpetrator or worse (prisons are full of people who “snapped” and over-retaliated to a threat). Siegfrieds’ Tigers, the “always gentle 20 year old elephant” that rampaged and killed 3, etc, etc, etc. I’m constantly amazed at how arrogant some animal owners are.
The following is NOT a defense of this lady, what she did prior to the incident is criminal imo i.e. she new there was a problem (a pit bull in heat with a potentially predatory male and a small child, FREAKING IDIOT, she may as well have poured gas on the kid and started flicking matches at him). However, regarding her comments, I have seen people in extreme traumatic event induced disassociative states and they say and do things that are completely bizarre, inappropriate and third-person. (Denial to the point of mental illness)
We had an acquaintance whose fiancé was helping him move. She went to move a shotgun and it went off and essentially blew her chest out, dead instantly. This guy was the closest thing to a real zombie I’ve ever seen. Soulless dead eyes, physical appearance of someone 15 years older than he actually was and his behavior and comments were completely bizarre and inappropriate in some cases. They eventually had to sedate the guy to the point of a drooling comatose.
They’ve GOT to press charges on this idiot. She’s already admitted to a blatant form of child endangerment (“the male dog was acting aggressive to the point I locked my kid in a basement”, COME ON!!!)
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Good post Null.
Larry Rutledge
Fest Master
I am little surprised that no one has commented on the strangest part of the story. She knew there was a potential problem with the dog, so she what? She locked her kid in the basement!?!?!?!
That fell under "no words adequate."
It doesn’t matter nearly as much if a cocker spaniel or a chow is “more aggressive” or more likely to bite. They can’t tear your arm off. Or your leg.
Frizzle Fry
Well-known member
ian, you nailed it. another point -- i'd be surprised if these dogs were even actually pit bulls. they're actually very difficult to identify. in the diane whipple case, the dogs were identified initially as pit bulls, but later correctly identified as Spanish mastiffs.
all dogs, especially intact males in the same house as a female in heat (good God, that woman is a ****ing idiot), can be aggressive. but it's lack of training and such irresponsible ownership that leads to breed-specific legislation (i.e. genocide!). think about it. the bay area could see laws that allow the seizure and destruction of ALL pit bulls, just because a few irresponsible owners didn't train and control their inherently-capable-of-killing animals.
let's stop blaming the dogs and prosecute the owners. there's NO excuse for tragedies like this.
all dogs, especially intact males in the same house as a female in heat (good God, that woman is a ****ing idiot), can be aggressive. but it's lack of training and such irresponsible ownership that leads to breed-specific legislation (i.e. genocide!). think about it. the bay area could see laws that allow the seizure and destruction of ALL pit bulls, just because a few irresponsible owners didn't train and control their inherently-capable-of-killing animals.
let's stop blaming the dogs and prosecute the owners. there's NO excuse for tragedies like this.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Jubal28 said:
Exactly. :beer:
Here's some stats from the CDC. The last bit underlines the point above, the mother is at fault:
"The Centers for Disease Control study dog bite incidents, including the types of dogs most likely to bite. The breeds that the CDC considers highest risk are pit bulls, Rottweilers, German shepherds, Huskies, Alaskan malamutes, Doberman pinschers, Chows, Great Danes, St. Bernards and Akitas.
Although pit bull mixes and Rottweillers are most likely to kill and seriously maim, fatal attacks since 1975 have been attributed to dogs from at least 30 breeds.
The most horrifying example of the lack of breed predictability is the October 2000 death of a 6-week-old baby, which was killed by her family's Pomeranian dog. The average weight of a Pomeranian is about 4 pounds, and they are not thought of as a dangerous breed. Note, however, that they were bred to be watchdogs! The baby's uncle left the infant and the dog on a bed while the uncle prepared her bottle in the kitchen. Upon his return, the dog was mauling the baby, who died shortly afterwards. ("Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog," Los Angeles Times, Monday, October 9, 2000 , Home Edition, Metro Section, Page B-5.)
In all fairness, therefore, it must be noted that:
Any dog, treated harshly or trained to attack, may bite a person. Any dog can be turned into a dangerous dog. The owner most often is responsible -- not the breed, and not the dog.
An irresponsible owner or dog handler might create a situation that places another person in danger by a dog, without the dog itself being dangerous, as in the case of the Pomeranian that killed the infant (see above).
Any individual dog may be a good, loving pet, even though its breed is considered to be likely to bite. A responsible owner can win the love and respect of a dog, no matter its breed. One cannot look at an individual dog, recognize its breed, and then state whether or not it is going to attack.
The public should beware that in all cases irresponsible owners are the problem. The reason is that irresponsible behavior has caused a rising and unacceptable injury and death toll, which authorities are determined to stem. "
Ask a vet, the dogs that bit them most are small terriers (yorkies in particular) and Cocker Spaniels. Obviously though a medium or large size dog presents a far larger threat when it does bite. Also bear in mind (check to the CDC to find verify if you don't belive me) 16x more people (children) die by drowning in five gallon buckets every year, as sad as that is. Since 1992 Rotts have actually killed more people than any other dog (they've also become more popular as "guard" dogs) but the percentage of Pits that kill people of the entire population? .000385 percent of the pit bull population (assuming ten million dogs nationwide which that number is actually probably higher). This woman was completely irrational and irresponsible in her behavior.
"The Centers for Disease Control study dog bite incidents, including the types of dogs most likely to bite. The breeds that the CDC considers highest risk are pit bulls, Rottweilers, German shepherds, Huskies, Alaskan malamutes, Doberman pinschers, Chows, Great Danes, St. Bernards and Akitas.
Although pit bull mixes and Rottweillers are most likely to kill and seriously maim, fatal attacks since 1975 have been attributed to dogs from at least 30 breeds.
The most horrifying example of the lack of breed predictability is the October 2000 death of a 6-week-old baby, which was killed by her family's Pomeranian dog. The average weight of a Pomeranian is about 4 pounds, and they are not thought of as a dangerous breed. Note, however, that they were bred to be watchdogs! The baby's uncle left the infant and the dog on a bed while the uncle prepared her bottle in the kitchen. Upon his return, the dog was mauling the baby, who died shortly afterwards. ("Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog," Los Angeles Times, Monday, October 9, 2000 , Home Edition, Metro Section, Page B-5.)
In all fairness, therefore, it must be noted that:
Any dog, treated harshly or trained to attack, may bite a person. Any dog can be turned into a dangerous dog. The owner most often is responsible -- not the breed, and not the dog.
An irresponsible owner or dog handler might create a situation that places another person in danger by a dog, without the dog itself being dangerous, as in the case of the Pomeranian that killed the infant (see above).
Any individual dog may be a good, loving pet, even though its breed is considered to be likely to bite. A responsible owner can win the love and respect of a dog, no matter its breed. One cannot look at an individual dog, recognize its breed, and then state whether or not it is going to attack.
The public should beware that in all cases irresponsible owners are the problem. The reason is that irresponsible behavior has caused a rising and unacceptable injury and death toll, which authorities are determined to stem. "
Ask a vet, the dogs that bit them most are small terriers (yorkies in particular) and Cocker Spaniels. Obviously though a medium or large size dog presents a far larger threat when it does bite. Also bear in mind (check to the CDC to find verify if you don't belive me) 16x more people (children) die by drowning in five gallon buckets every year, as sad as that is. Since 1992 Rotts have actually killed more people than any other dog (they've also become more popular as "guard" dogs) but the percentage of Pits that kill people of the entire population? .000385 percent of the pit bull population (assuming ten million dogs nationwide which that number is actually probably higher). This woman was completely irrational and irresponsible in her behavior.
But the point isn’t even the pit bulls as much as it is the unspeakable woman at the center of the story.
Frizzle, has a great point too, a point that is also mentioned on the CDC sight. Dogs are often misidentified and peoples idea of what a pit looks like vary wildly. As a dog owner I support legislation that makes the owner felonly responsible (like in Cali) for deaths and maimings when negligence is shown. What I don't support is breed specific laws that aren't born out by statistics or need. Most of this could be avoided if animal cruelty laws were more strictly enforced. A dog is ten times more likely to bite when left chained up all day long (again stats from the CDC).
Sorry, I'll let the pit bull thing go. The point is the woman is a ****ing idiot. No doubt.
Sorry, I'll let the pit bull thing go. The point is the woman is a ****ing idiot. No doubt.
nullphonic
Well-known member
Jubal28 said:
Agreed. The story could have been "Woman leaves child on conveyer belt" or "Woman locks child in basement with gas stove burning". The bottom line was she left a child in a volatile situation, it just happened to be dogs.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Burn at the Stake; it's simple really and makes for great reality television. I should be a Producer.
Larry Rutledge
Fest Master
nullphonic said:
Or just, "Woman locks child in basement"...period, that's the tragedy of this story.
Final Design Studios
Veteran
How ignorant of your own child's safety do you have to be to do that? This lady seriously needs to be charged, committed, flogged, whatever. But what it boils down to is that this lady put her child in a potentially life threatening situation and it killed the kid. Her lack of common sense killed her child. Thats just sadly wrong.
Instinct is something that simply cannot be ignored and to say that pit bulls or chows or akitas aren't naturally programmed for aggression is ridiculous. All dogs have been, to some extent, designed to protect and hunt for humans.
We have two Jack Russell Terriers who are switched-on hunters. Squirrels, chipmunks, rabbits, moles - almost anything small, furry and on all fours is fair game. We were warned repeatedly that our house cats fit the JRT's quarry profile and that even accepted "family member" pets of the feline persuasion might well fall victim to our new pet's instinct. We lost both cats to cars before this prophecy manifested, but I did witness the dogs giving them a good, spirited chase now and again.
These dogs were built for one thing and that is hunting - specifically going into a hole and flushing quarry that had gone to ground to escape the larger dogs like beagles and hounds. A working JRT will often not touch the quarry, it just bays at it until its owner shows up to dig the animal out.
When we bought our first male, he was quite docile with almost none of the reported JRT derangements. That all ended when we took him to a nationally-sanctioned trial which included the well-known live quarry go-to-ground exercise among other Jack Russell specific events. After watching other dogs run the maze, it was like a switch just went off and he's not been the same since.
Chile is often observed trying to chop down trees (using his teeth) to catch a squirrel, whether it be real or imagined. Frequently he'll have to be pulled out very deep holes by the only thing still visible - his tail.
His female cousin, Dot, exhibits the same insticts to a lesser extent - though she really fancies herself a retriever.
I don't know much about American pit bulls or why they were originally created - though the Pit Bull Rescue Central reports that they were originally bred exclusively for fighting with other dogs. If this is indeed the case, any amount of training and positive reinforcement is no guarantee that the breed's original purpose isn't going to surface at an inappropriate time and with devastating results.
e
We have two Jack Russell Terriers who are switched-on hunters. Squirrels, chipmunks, rabbits, moles - almost anything small, furry and on all fours is fair game. We were warned repeatedly that our house cats fit the JRT's quarry profile and that even accepted "family member" pets of the feline persuasion might well fall victim to our new pet's instinct. We lost both cats to cars before this prophecy manifested, but I did witness the dogs giving them a good, spirited chase now and again.
These dogs were built for one thing and that is hunting - specifically going into a hole and flushing quarry that had gone to ground to escape the larger dogs like beagles and hounds. A working JRT will often not touch the quarry, it just bays at it until its owner shows up to dig the animal out.
When we bought our first male, he was quite docile with almost none of the reported JRT derangements. That all ended when we took him to a nationally-sanctioned trial which included the well-known live quarry go-to-ground exercise among other Jack Russell specific events. After watching other dogs run the maze, it was like a switch just went off and he's not been the same since.
Chile is often observed trying to chop down trees (using his teeth) to catch a squirrel, whether it be real or imagined. Frequently he'll have to be pulled out very deep holes by the only thing still visible - his tail.
His female cousin, Dot, exhibits the same insticts to a lesser extent - though she really fancies herself a retriever.
I don't know much about American pit bulls or why they were originally created - though the Pit Bull Rescue Central reports that they were originally bred exclusively for fighting with other dogs. If this is indeed the case, any amount of training and positive reinforcement is no guarantee that the breed's original purpose isn't going to surface at an inappropriate time and with devastating results.
e
Frizzle Fry
Well-known member
another point: working dogs need to work, or their energy manifests in behavioral problems. my German shepherd gets very naughty if he doesn't get the exercise he needs. because he's bred to work in fields with livestock doesn't mean playing ball won't satisfy his need to "herd sheep" or whatnot. In other words, "Since pit bulls were bred to fight, they're not happy if they're not fighting," is a false conclusion.
Dogs need structure, discipline, consistency, and a job to do. overland, if your dogs are misbehaving, perhaps you shouldn't blame their instincts but yourself for something you're not providing them? (not meant as a flame)
Consider this: a lot of the impressions of pit bulls is because they are currently so popular. remember when dobermans were the "bad asses" of the dog world? and German shepherds? All good dogs, deep down. They go bad when their owners fail them.
Dogs need structure, discipline, consistency, and a job to do. overland, if your dogs are misbehaving, perhaps you shouldn't blame their instincts but yourself for something you're not providing them? (not meant as a flame)
Consider this: a lot of the impressions of pit bulls is because they are currently so popular. remember when dobermans were the "bad asses" of the dog world? and German shepherds? All good dogs, deep down. They go bad when their owners fail them.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Interesting insight Overland and something to think about for those of you that believe "It is not the dog". It isn't. It is the raising of the animal and the situation the owners put the victim into but lest we forget; these breeds were 'BRED'
Interesting bites (No pun) from a link
http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/americanpitbullterrier.html
History/Origin:
"His ancestors were brought to the Unites States in the mid - 1800's by Boston-Irish immigrants. Originally bred from a variety of bulldogs and terriers, American breeders increased his weight and gave him a more powerful head. A forbearer to the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, they were originally bred to be a fighting dog."
Also states:
"Should be socialized early on with children and other animals."
We're not talking about leaving the kid unattended with a goldfish here.
Interesting bites (No pun) from a link
http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/americanpitbullterrier.html
History/Origin:
"His ancestors were brought to the Unites States in the mid - 1800's by Boston-Irish immigrants. Originally bred from a variety of bulldogs and terriers, American breeders increased his weight and gave him a more powerful head. A forbearer to the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, they were originally bred to be a fighting dog."
Also states:
"Should be socialized early on with children and other animals."
We're not talking about leaving the kid unattended with a goldfish here.
Rosestar
Well-known member
I can not believe that stupid ***** is not behind bars. An one interested, hear is a link to the San Fran District Attorny's office. I am sending an email of outrage. That mother (I am using the term only in biological terms) should spend the rest of her life behind bars.
http://www.sfgov.org/site/mainpages_form.asp?id=18611
Anyone else interest, let them know.
http://www.sfgov.org/site/mainpages_form.asp?id=18611
Anyone else interest, let them know.