No monitoring lav recording system advice?

I

Iudex

Well-known member
Hi! How are you?

I'm planning on buying a couple of recorders and lavs to plant (edit: I meant to have the lavs on the talents) and leave unsupervised. For this little project I can't afford to have wireless systems and a sound guy.

I have a couple of alternatives:

1. Zitronik Lavalier (20USD) + Zoom H1 recorder (100USD) = 120USD x 2 = 240USD.
2. Tascam DR-10L with Lavalier Included = 200USD x 2 = 400USD.

My main concern is having audio burnt out by yelling and such, since this will be used for a theatre play.

What do you think? Thanks a lot for your advice!
 
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The only thing I could suggest is a recorder with the dual-record mode (safety track). I think the Tascam has that. You can still end up with crap due to the many other reasons.
 
I have the Tascam DR10L, it does have the protection track function you can enable, it works pretty well as far as protecting from overloads, that second track can be a lifesaver. I agree with Rick, unattended monitoring is a crap shoot at best. You know that a lavaliere is going to be close to useless unless your talent is speaking within a foot or two of the mic? I can't imagine you could place plant mics very effectively unless your talent are going to spend the whole scene in the same spot. The plant mic will also pick up all of the thumps, shoe squeeks, clothing rustling, foot steps, etc. There is really no substitute putting a lav on a talent where it can pick up their voice from a consistent vantage point. It's tough to get a professional result with sound without a budget and a sound mixer.
 
Iudex said:
What do you think?
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I think that recording audio without monitoring is like using a video camera without looking at the screen. Yes, you can do either, but it's a gamble whether you'll get anything you want to use.

Given that this is for a theater play, you probably won't use the audio unless you do a boat load of post on it. Actors walking toward and away will play havoc on levels, and turning toward and away will play havoc on frequency response.

Go for the Tascam -- at least you can record the safety track. It's not much, but it's something.
 
It seems I didn't explain well, my idea is to have the lavs placed on the actors, not somewhere on the stage!

Thanks for the DR10L protection track tip! There's no way to do this on the Zoom H1, right? Maybe another similar recorder but not as expensive as the DR10L?

Thanks a lot.
 
Iudex said:
It seems I didn't explain well, my idea is to have the lavs placed on the actors, not somewhere on the stage!

Thanks for the DR10L protection track tip! There's no way to do this on the Zoom H1, right? Maybe another similar recorder but not as expensive as the DR10L?

Thanks a lot.
Click to expand...

You used a key word, "plant". In the audio game, a plant microphone is hidden in a prop or sometimes, literally a plant, vase of flowers, etc. something that would make sense to be in the scene with the characters. So that term, to a sound person, has a specific meaning and connotation, that's why our answers were written that way. So your mics will not be plant mics, they will be on the talent. The DR-10L is a great little recorder but you probably stand a very good chance of recording unusable audio. But if you cannot hire a sound mixer, what other choice do you have?
 
Iudex said:
It seems I didn't explain well, my idea is to have the lavs placed on the actors, not somewhere on the stage!

Thanks for the DR10L protection track tip! There's no way to do this on the Zoom H1, right? Maybe another similar recorder but not as expensive as the DR10L?

Thanks a lot.
Click to expand...

The Tascam DR10L is dirt cheap for what it is.

And the features of dual track recording and locking 3.5mmm connection (neither of which the Zoom H1 has) are two massively important features for what you're wanting to do.

Get the Tascam. (you're getting a better mic too than the Zitronik Lavalier)
 
Iudex said:
There's no way to do this on the Zoom H1, right?
Click to expand...

You can build an adapter that can add a second channel as a safety track. I will be doing that in a few weeks. Check YouTube.

Two great things about the H1 is that you can use it as a plant recorder and with certain self-powered shotguns.
 
Iudex said:
Hi! How are you?

I'm planning on buying a couple of recorders and lavs to plant and leave unsupervised. For this little project I can't afford to have wireless systems and a sound guy.

I have a couple of alternatives:

1. Zitronik Lavalier (20USD) + Zoom H1 recorder (100USD) = 120USD x 2 = 240USD.
2. Tascam DR-10L with Lavalier Included = 200USD x 2 = 400USD.

My main concern is having audio burnt out by yelling and such, since this will be used for a theatre play.

What do you think? Thanks a lot for your advice!
Click to expand...

My advice would be to use your budget and hire a sound person.

But since you are considering not monitoring your actors, I assume my advice will fall on deaf ears. :evil:
 
I have several Tascam DR10L and have used them during events and also as backups on interviews with wireless. The best option I see in this situation if no sound person is an option.
I love the little things! They can be adjusted and as previously mentioned also have the backup file at a lower level.
 
Why on earth would you use lav mics as plant mics for a stage play???

What you want to use depends a LOT on what the theatre is like. Traditionally the two big options were hanging mics and or PZM's on the stage lip. Both have pluses and minuses. Hanging mics tend to pick up the fly loft if you have one and need to be small if you are dropping them into sight lines, and they can cast shadows. PZM's in general are a better choice. You want to stick them on a large flat surface, so floors and walls are usually good choices, but you can also stick them on a piece of plywood and hang them some place. The other big pluses is that they pick up in a wide pattern but only from the front so if you place them correctly you can greatly reduce things you don't want like too much audience bleed or the fly loft echo chamber and you can mix them with no phasing issues.

If visibility is not an issue then PZM's would still be my first choice, but you might get decent results just planting the recorders and using their built in mics.

Also if this is a one shot thing you really NEED to get some rehearsal time to set sound levels. If you can record more than one performance you could probably go with a best guess and then record the next show if you have clipping. This is the kind of situation where really good limiters are a life saver.
 
Noiz2 said:
Why on earth would you use lav mics as plant mics for a stage play???

What you want to use depends a LOT on what the theatre is like. Traditionally the two big options were hanging mics and or PZM's on the stage lip. Both have pluses and minuses. Hanging mics tend to pick up the fly loft if you have one and need to be small if you are dropping them into sight lines, and they can cast shadows. PZM's in general are a better choice. You want to stick them on a large flat surface, so floors and walls are usually good choices, but you can also stick them on a piece of plywood and hang them some place. The other big pluses is that they pick up in a wide pattern but only from the front so if you place them correctly you can greatly reduce things you don't want like too much audience bleed or the fly loft echo chamber and you can mix them with no phasing issues.

If visibility is not an issue then PZM's would still be my first choice, but you might get decent results just planting the recorders and using their built in mics.

Also if this is a one shot thing you really NEED to get some rehearsal time to set sound levels. If you can record more than one performance you could probably go with a best guess and then record the next show if you have clipping. This is the kind of situation where really good limiters are a life saver.
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Interesting idea, I didn't think about this.

The thing is this will be to record a scene on a rented rehearsal room, to use for acting showreels. That's the somewhat small magnitude of the project.

On the other hand I will be acting in a full play towards the end of the year, so I will also get a PZM. I

Thank you all for your advice! Looks like it is a couple of DR10L on one hand and a Audio-Technica PRO 44 on the other.

Thanks!
 
If you are having the actors wear the Lav's that is a different story but as plant mics they are not a great choice, it's not what they were designed for.

I would check out the rehearsal room ahead of time. From years in theatre I can say that most rehearsal spaces are kind of sucky for sound. If you can I would bring as many packing blankets or soft cloth anything to help knock the edge off of the bounce in the room. Check first because there are a few spaces that are not just big hard surface boxes, but not many.

For this kind of thing you are often better off if you can get a music rehearsal room, they as a rule are much better acoustically.
 
I would seriously consider using this budget to either rent the proper equipment or hire a sound person. I really don't like the idea of recording audio without monitoring. If you absolutely have to, then I'd recommend the Lectrosonics PDR. It's a great little recorder that has a mode that records a safety track. Here I am talking with Karl Winkler at NAB about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp7Xj_R64cY&t=1s
 
I know he came on here but he is talking about shooting some demo clips for actors in the theatre. What that means is that he is not kidding about budget because thee is not a lot of $ in theatre. Unfortunately so few theatres spend any thought to sound it's also likely that there are not many/ any sound folks available, and this is probably free or close.

The other thing is that he will actually be able to listen to the sound and redo it if needed since this is not a performance. Also this type of thing is not about polished production values. They are often done with a camcorder and the built in mics so as long as the sound is not distractingly bad it should be OK for the purpose.

Think of it more like a deposition that a short film.
 
If you're really a budget and can't monitor the audio anyway, you could consider Røde SmartLav+. Costs $79 or and records to iPhones (and probably android phones too). At least then all your budget goes to the actual mic.
If you also have some mic on stage, it could work fine if you mix the sounds...
 
I wouldn't lav this kind of shoot unless you can do it right with a sound person, and maybe not even then. The "roominess" of camera mic or fixed mic will probably help with this kind of shoot. Once you lav the actors there will be a higher expectation that it is unlikely you will pull off. Plus this is about acting, the video is just documenting. If this is to get theatre gigs I would definitely not lav the actors because that is not the vocal quality the directors are looking for (sounds too much like film work). For a theatre acting tape you want a boring fixed camera in a full shot+ and some appropriate distance on the mic so it sounds like the room it's in. Essentially you are trying to recreate an actual audition "feel".

If it's for film work you would want to be a lot closer since the face is much more important in film acting (stage acting is more about the body and voice).

Film work is generally recorded close so that is appropriate for audition micing, though I would still give it the "audition" distance. Theatre work is always at a fair distance from the audience and a big problem for film actors doing stage work is that they just don't know how to project their voices and not sound forced. So getting some realistic distance on the mic shows they can project and lets them sound more like they would in a stage situation.

This is a classic of "you need to know what you want to end up with, before you can know where to start". The goal is to get the actors some work. Great film work and editing hurts that goal since the viewer can't be sure if they are seeing good acting or some good camera work and editing hiding bad acting. Also why close ups are important for a film real and a bad thing in a theatrical reel. In a film somewhere between 50% and 100% of an actors lines are in some form of close up, where in theatre 0% of your lines are in anything but a wide shot.
 
I would go with Noiz on this. It sounds like what your will be doing is shooting from a fixed location off the stage (you did say you were one of the actors, didn't you?).

For that an ENG type camcorder with a shotgun mic mounted on top is probably ideal. Sure you will pic up external noise, but it sounds like what you need is just to clearly hear the actors lines. That type of set up works fine for that. You do not need Hollywood or Night time TV advertisement quality sound. You and the other actors just need to see and hear the play as an audience would.
 
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