FEATURE: NO GREATER LOVE - Official Thread - Feature Film

Brandon,

So I wait for eons in my Netflix queue only to get it smack in the middle of the Atlanta Film Fest which I was basically attending every night...but Finally watched it Monday night and just wanted to say.

Nice Job. Very well done movie. I see why Lions Gate wanted to distribute it. Congratulations again and good luck with your future features as well.

I hope another division of Lion's Gate takes an interest in my feature once we complete it. :)

Anyway, again, glad I was able to see it finally. Good job.

-Martin
 
I normally don't like movies like this, for the reasons someone else stated (religion being shoved down my throat in unbelievable storylines that would never in a million years happen) But, you kept things realistic, and made the issues real and thus it made sense. I really thought it was a good movie, and not just a good "christian" movie.
 
The one comment I find amazing as a Christian filmmaker is something along the lines of "religion being shoved down someone's throat" or "pushing your message at someone". Why is it that hollywood and other independent filmmakers constantly make films about all kinds of sex, violence, zombies, obscene and disgusting jokes and vulgar language and that is just the excepted norm. All of the Christians of the world have issues like homosexuality, abortion, racism and slander of the christian faith, evolution and premarital and even orgy sex rammed down our throats all the time by the typical crap coming from filmmakers. Just as we have the right to not watch that junk, then you also have the right to not watch the films we make, without whining. If you don't like the message that is no problem, then don't watch it. But don't sit around complaining about the films that we make because they don't fit into the category of film that you would usually like. I am in no way pushing my message at or ramming my message toward anybody's pie hole. I am making a movie about something that is important to me and means something to me, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER FILMMAKER. BTW I am no way aiming this little rant at anyone specific, just at these sort of statements in general.
 
Robertson6 said:
The one comment I find amazing as a Christian filmmaker is something along the lines of "religion being shoved down someone's throat" or "pushing your message at someone".
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I understand your frustration with terms like this. I don't watch a ton of Christian Films or Faith-based or whatever the term is these days. I've scene quite a few though as a film festival screener and casual film fan ("Remember The Giants" and "Fireproof" in their theatrical run).

I do think I understand why that criticism comes up though. Just my theory but I find when films with an overt message don't work, it's when they abandon the traditional storytelling paradigm and concentrate on simply the message. For instance, a film that is presented as a narrative that stops a natural narrative structure for several sermons or bible lessons to the detriment of the storytelling stands out. And by standing out, I think some attribute that as the filmmakers force-feeding message rather than telling a good narrative storyline. I do think a term like "shoving religion down your throat" seems harsh but that phrase is very common outside of film discussion as well.

I think Hollywood films that you cite, don't necessarily have the same feeling of being force-fed as some (yes, some) Christian themed films do at times. Sure there's a lot of sex, violence, etc. permeating mainstream films but it is uncommon for those films to alter narrative structure or momentum to deliver their "message" (as if they have one, mostly in mainstream movies these things are just accepted as quasi-normal behavior).

That said, "No Greater Love" did not (at least in my opinion) fall into the category of a film that sacrificed its narrative thrust to force feed the audience. However, it did have a clear message and did translate a lot of Christian values through the story itself in an organic way.

So, a long post just to say I see both sides of the fence but do empathize with your frustration.

-M
 
Robertson6 said:
The one comment I find amazing as a Christian filmmaker is something along the lines of "religion being shoved down someone's throat" or "pushing your message at someone". Why is it that hollywood and other independent filmmakers constantly make films about all kinds of sex, violence, zombies, obscene and disgusting jokes and vulgar language and that is just the excepted norm. All of the Christians of the world have issues like homosexuality, abortion, racism and slander of the christian faith, evolution and premarital and even orgy sex rammed down our throats all the time by the typical crap coming from filmmakers. Just as we have the right to not watch that junk, then you also have the right to not watch the films we make, without whining. If you don't like the message that is no problem, then don't watch it. But don't sit around complaining about the films that we make because they don't fit into the category of film that you would usually like. I am in no way pushing my message at or ramming my message toward anybody's pie hole. I am making a movie about something that is important to me and means something to me, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER FILMMAKER. BTW I am no way aiming this little rant at anyone specific, just at these sort of statements in general.
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I'll respond since I kind of started this. I grew up in church. My dad is a Minister. I spent the first half of my life in a church pew every single sunday, every single wednesday night, and for every other little function they ever had. I played in christian bands, and I did the whole shebang. I know my way around the bible better than most people who go to church every sunday. I wasn't trying to take a stab at christian films. I just don't care for "christian" films where its painfully obvious that the film is not meant to tell a story, but to lead you to Jesus. Maybe I just want to be entertained and not preached to? Of course I have the option of not watching it.

I was talking to my mom about this the other day, not quite in the same sense.. but I made a comment on facebook about finding my wife's wedding ring. I said "The god's have smiled upon thee this day" and a few other things about how I found the ring. My sister in law, who is extremely religions only commented with "There is only 1 god Joe". This kind of irked me... why? Because as I mentioned, I know my way around the bible more than most.. and just a month or so ago, she was out partying and drinking and getting generally wasted and because of it got divorced. Now, because she's "saved" she's perfect and everyone else isn't. And she makes it a point to make sure I know it everytime she sees or is in my general direction. And so All I hear constantly is how I should be watching christian movies, and listening to christian music.. blah blah blah... I watch "GOOD" movies, and listen to "GOOD" music. I don't care if its christian, hindu, or whatever. I told my mom, that the biggest way to turn people away from God.. is to constantly badger them with it. She agreed with me. I'm just saying, that I'm not going to "kudos" a movie just because it has the christian label on it. It still has to tell a good story, and most of the time the storytelling is overshadowed by the "message", and thats why I can't take them seriously sometimes. God works in mysterious ways, yes.. but he won't let you sell 1000 used cards overnight.. I don't care how much you pray. Thats what I am getting at. No Greater love, was real in its message and its story and so I never felt like they were trying to sell me on christianity. I was just watching a really good movie, with a really moving story. Which is what movies should be about anyway. Thats why I don't get the whole "christian music" and "secular music" can't music just have a "good message" and just be "good music"? why does it have to have that "label"? I know you'd probably say, well why are "horror" movies.. horror.. but horror is a genre.. not a religion. Once you start trying to mix those things together, it can cause issues.. because the moment you label yourself... everyone is looking at you!
 
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Bravo and Amen to all of your comments!

What we tried (and it seems we achieved) to do with NGL was to have an interesting, and moving story, that had a message flow FROM it... not be forced into it. This is the main issue with Christian films today, where they feel like a sermon, not a story.

Thanks to everyone who saw the film! :)
 
Thanks for the polite discourse about this issue everyone. I appreciate what Brandon has done and am looking forward to seeing it. I have watched the 30 sneak peak on the website and enjoyed what I saw so far, we have the DVD in our netflix cue for the next movie out. Martay I appreciate your input but you kind of prove my point for me, when hollywood make a movie with an agenda then it is just accepted as normal and just "opens up dialogue" about an issue. And you see it as normal and non intrusive. That is ok, but how you view christian movies is how I view hollywood films. And how you view hollywood films is how I view christian films. I am not saying that either side shouldn't be allowed to make a movie with an agenda at all, I just think it is truly unfair the bias that christian films receive for it. It is mostly a perspective thing, you don't like christianity so you see these films as silly if you will. I personally oppose most of the ideals and beliefs taught and glorified in hollywood movies to I see them as terrible. And I can't speak for Brandon or any other christian filmmaker but let me tell you it is entirely different being a filmmaker on this side of the isle. There are many things that we can't get access to that most filmmakers can because of our faith. We are currently filming our first feature film and we are having a terrible time getting locations, extras, well experienced talent, financing and even crew. Not because our movie is a hit piece or anything like that, but because we are a faith based production and they don't want to affiliate with us. This isn't stretching the truth, it is their words in person and on paper. That is biased whether you agree or not.
 
Sorry to hear about your experience. We have not received ANY resistance in regard to production. If the money is there, it'll happen. If you have a great story to tell, people will get behind it, whether or not it contains Christians or Christianity. Bottom line.
 
Robertson6 said:
Thanks for the polite discourse about this issue everyone. I appreciate what Brandon has done and am looking forward to seeing it. I have watched the 30 sneak peak on the website and enjoyed what I saw so far, we have the DVD in our netflix cue for the next movie out. Martay I appreciate your input but you kind of prove my point for me, when hollywood make a movie with an agenda then it is just accepted as normal and just "opens up dialogue" about an issue. And you see it as normal and non intrusive. That is ok, but how you view christian movies is how I view hollywood films. And how you view hollywood films is how I view christian films. I am not saying that either side shouldn't be allowed to make a movie with an agenda at all, I just think it is truly unfair the bias that christian films receive for it. It is mostly a perspective thing, you don't like christianity so you see these films as silly if you will. I personally oppose most of the ideals and beliefs taught and glorified in hollywood movies to I see them as terrible. And I can't speak for Brandon or any other christian filmmaker but let me tell you it is entirely different being a filmmaker on this side of the isle. There are many things that we can't get access to that most filmmakers can because of our faith. We are currently filming our first feature film and we are having a terrible time getting locations, extras, well experienced talent, financing and even crew. Not because our movie is a hit piece or anything like that, but because we are a faith based production and they don't want to affiliate with us. This isn't stretching the truth, it is their words in person and on paper. That is biased whether you agree or not.
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Actually to go a bit further with this without derailing brandon's thread. I'm shooting a horror film in the bible belt portion of GA, and I was actually surprised at how supportive people have been. On that same token, they haven't seen it yet.. so right now its just "cool to have a movie being filmed here". If I had stated I was making a christian family movie.. I would have had people lining up for blocks to help.. just because of where I live. So it goes both ways!
 
Robertson6 said:
Martay I appreciate your input but you kind of prove my point for me, when hollywood make a movie with an agenda then it is just accepted as normal and just "opens up dialogue" about an issue. And you see it as normal and non intrusive. That is ok, but how you view christian movies is how I view hollywood films.
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Well, I was talking about the style of storytelling of some Christian Films. I think a big difference with some of them vs. Hollywood films is this style that at times takes the viewer out of a traditional movie experience. Hollywood films with an agenda usually don't even do this.

For example, The Contender is a film that I believe had a clear agenda and worldview. It basically painted Evangelical conservatives as the most hypocritical type of Politician and the modern liberal feminist female politicians (or just women in general) as the most victimized by them. Now, there were times when their message SCREAMED out at the audience and was over the top, etc. However, the structure of the movie did not deviate radically from most movies.

So, my point was that I understand why some christian movies stand out to audiences at times and feel like they're "different" from the average movie in a negative way.

Now, I empathize with you and your film. I am a producer on a project that can't seem to get off the ground as well which is a Christian Film. It's a traditional narrative but clearly a faith-based film about a Pastor and his family.

Now, we've had cooperation in terms of locations, Gospel musicians on board for the soundtrack, etc. Our struggle is the finance that we still need. We've not run into folks who object to the content but just folks who aren't sold on the movie (or the filmmakers) enough to invest.

Good luck with your project.

-M
 
I never see the problem of having an agenda with a movie. I think you "should have an agenda" I mean you're creating "Programming". ;-) But I will say that I think the message is better accepted when the message is mellow and done over time through several movies instead of concentrated into one piece. Christian films (Not saying anything about NGL since I haven't seen it) aren't the only ones that suffer from being too overt, African-American films and Gay/Lesbian films also seem to have a super thread of being too overt with subject matter. Tyler Perry has been one to get some critisism because his ideas are generally extremly overt. Spike Lee also has done the same type of thing in the past. So there are lots of films, usually specialized niche markets, that tend to be this way.
 
jls4 said:
I never see the problem of having an agenda with a movie. I think you "should have an agenda" I mean you're creating "Programming". ;-) But I will say that I think the message is better accepted when the message is mellow and done over time through several movies instead of concentrated into one piece. Christian films (Not saying anything about NGL since I haven't seen it) aren't the only ones that suffer from being too overt, African-American films and Gay/Lesbian films also seem to have a super thread of being too overt with subject matter. Tyler Perry has been one to get some critisism because his ideas are generally extremly overt. Spike Lee also has done the same type of thing in the past. So there are lots of films, usually specialized niche markets, that tend to be this way.
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Oh boy. Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Especially Tyler Perry. He's worse than Michael Bay in my book.
 
Kholi said:
Especially Tyler Perry. He's worse than Michael Bay in my book.
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Michael Bay? You don't like the super explosions and crafted cinematography? lol

Tyler comes from the Gospel Play World so I always know kind of what he's trying to do. But his work is - well his work. And he has a market.

I forgot who really opened my eyes to telling your subject matter smoothly (it was somebody on these boards). We all "program" when we make a film. Whether you claim it or not, you are doing it. People do "learn" from what they see in movies and immitate what they see. Trust if people didn't, product placement wouldn't be so big.

That's why I say it's nothing wrong with a hidden agenda. If the goal of a movie is to turn people to Christ what's wrong with that. If you have a movie that is all T and A, I wouldn't believe you if you said you didn't think young boys 13 to 21 would be watching this movie - espeically those who don't have girlfriends. :2vrolijk_08:

Those that are generally turned off are the ones who don't want that influence. For me I don't watch many if any horror films. I don't like the concept of being desensitized to violence. So everyone has what they like, that's what's great about living in America. We can choose what path we want to take.
 
Wow, simply remarkable. I guess like many have said before, I also can have a hard time with films that push an agenda too hard - I think the problem with many of those films is that the message isn't crafted well into the story and it can be very abrasive.

Not the case here by any stretch - and your message is so much more powerful because of it. I'm just blown away by how good this is - you have absolutely outdone yourselves - incredible job.
 
Robertson6 said:
It is mostly a perspective thing, you don't like christianity so you see these films as silly if you will. I personally oppose most of the ideals and beliefs taught and glorified in hollywood movies to I see them as terrible. And I can't speak for Brandon or any other christian filmmaker but let me tell you it is entirely different being a filmmaker on this side of the isle. There are many things that we can't get access to that most filmmakers can because of our faith. We are currently filming our first feature film and we are having a terrible time getting locations, extras, well experienced talent, financing and even crew. Not because our movie is a hit piece or anything like that, but because we are a faith based production and they don't want to affiliate with us. This isn't stretching the truth, it is their words in person and on paper. That is biased whether you agree or not.
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I'm going to say that many of the problems we face are brought on by ourselves. The term "Christian film" is a term brought about to merchandise films to Christians, as the Bible state would happen in this time we have become merchandise (2 Peter 2:3). When people see this term they expect something specific. I don't watch many Christian films because of what I expect. (And usually get). I find that many of us will support things based on "message" and look past whether it's any good or not. We feel like they're doing it "for us" so we have to support it.

Let's take the old Cloud Ten Films. They were corny, but they had action, excitement, good writing, decent acting (sometimes over the top but decent), looked good though they had a grade-B feel to them but it wasn't distracting as it was common in that era. In fact, they were very entertaining (I'm not including Sci-Fi film they tried to do). The polished "Left Behind" films had more money behind them, but simply weren't that good, but were supported because of the series. We'll the films weren't nearly as good as the books. Now keep in mind there were only suppose to be a certain amount of books if I remember correctly (I used to be a fan and on the old site often) but when it started making money suddenly it became a hundred part series. I'm like would Jesus wipe the floor with the Antichrist and get this series over with.

When you say you make "Christian" films, you put yourself into a box and have to live up to the expectations of others. As a filmmaker this becomes and issue. When I made "Wages of Sin" I got complaints from one of the actors in "The Fourth Beast" that my film was no different than a Hollywood film. He felt I was selling my soul (not selling out even but went for the soul). Because it had cursing in it. Keep in mind no one buys films for the great cursing in it. He seemed to feel that I was being influenced because I wanted to make money (which I never actually made any major profit from this movie). He wanted me to come back to The Lord Jesus. But a film called "Wages of Sin" with the lead being a Bible reading Christian cop, who basically fights the bad guys with the whole theme and title of the film being "The Wages of Sin". I don't know, maybe my message wasn't obvious. I mean there's a point in there where the one hooker turns to God in a time of and lives, the other mocks God and is eventually killed. Honestly, that's more in line with Christian filmmaking than Hollywood. But because no one dropped to their knees and gave their lives to Christ every few frames and low-life thugs talked and acted like they would in real life suddenly my film was evil. As a guy who used to live around drug dealers and street hoods, don't tell me these people talk like Disney characters.

Christians paint themselves into a hole by trying live up to expectation versus telling a good story. The elements of Hollywood stories are closer to Biblical storytelling than the average Christian film. When we say "Christian" film we think "New Testament" but isn't the whole Bible "Christian"? It's kind of funny when Jesus tells a story people die by fire, get heads chopped off and generally thrown into pit with darkness and gnashing of teeth. And if we're honest (asking a Christian to be honest about The Bible is tough one), when the Bible tells a story, heads do get cut off and thrown over roofs, people get cut up and shipped in boxes, demons pop up and possess people, women get raped, men sleep with hookers and have sex with their daughters (and that's just the good guys). But somehow this is all overlooked as good clean fun because it's in the Bible. The stories that didn't make it in the Bible are more pointed, like Adam's first wife leaving him because frankly, she wanted to be on top. I'm not making that up, that's part of one of the creation stories that didn't make it in with the two that did. (Today Lilith is used as a symbol of feminism ironically the idea of the story was Lilith didn't want to be equal as she said, but on top). Other midrash writing that didn't make it into the Bible contained vampires, succubi, stories of rogue angels having sex with humans (and having giants as the offspring of these unions and the Bible itself acknowledges the giants) and legions of demons running amok. Sounds like a Hollywood movie to me. I sure as heck plan to write about it.

Now as far people not wanting to associate with you because you're making a "Christian" film I'm not doubting that, but I'm also going to assume you either don't know how to work your Christian filmmaker status or you're filmming in THE 5TH LEVEL OF HELL, to which I can understand as the inhabitants of Hell aren't too happy with us and the whole loving God thing. (Insert LA being the 5th level of Hell Joke here). I'm in Chicago, it's no Bible belt, but if I really want something done at some point I'm tempted to say, "Yea, well I'm making a Bible based film and I need..." and suddenly things happen. Mention "I need someone good with Bible scripture" and people pop up. Keep in mind I don't go to the Atheist League of America and try this, but in most other place it works. People have been more open to me saying that than "I'm shooting a horror film can you help me with these bloody knives". Frankly I have the problem of NOT being able to really say that because the topics I deal with are controversial within Christianity itself.

And why do you feel you have to state you're doing a Christian film if you know it's going to lead to unneeded trouble. Simply say, "This is my script." Or why not say, "I'm doing a film about...". Christinaity is common enough where throwing a Christian element in a film can go generally unnoticed. If you're trying to get big Christian actors, Kirk Cameron, Chelsea Noble (Cameron's wife), Chuck Norris, Patrica Heaton Stephen Baldwin (whose a hardcore evangelical type) and others are available with a good script (and some cash would help). In fact the reason people are so upfront about their film being "Christian" is because people are more likely to help.

Now on the real I know enough about the entertainment industry to know there are forces with anti-Christian agendas, (and some with actual demonic ones) but at the same time, I would be shocked if everyone, even most turned their backs on you because of it. If you're going to do faith based films, yes some people will shun you, but (again I don't know where you shoot your films at) if it's that bad where you are I won't be riding through there anytime soon.

As for the ideas Hollywood push (and they do push many) the reason they're so good at what they do is because they tell stories about people. (Like the Bible actually). Many of us suck at what we do because we tell stories about messages. Even Tyler Perry's movies are about people and things we can relate to. Also Hollywood is a crafty serpent. As Christians we're told to be Crafty as serpents and harmless as doves. (Keep in mind Jesus called Satan a serpent). We're good at being harmless, not so much so at the crafty part. We're too Holy for all that. And sometimes we're harmful as some "Christian" films don't even have their "Biblical" theology right. The same person who told told me I was selling out, told me I was "off scripture" in the first film and he wanted his name off the film, though the theology walked in lock step with the Bible, but not with the common belief put forward by Christian entertainment. Huh?

My current film is an action/sci-fi film that deals with the endtimes. It's in your face with what it's about, but it's still an action sci-fi film and will be handled as such. My next film will probably be an action horror film involving vampires and demons. They'll all support my faith based worldview the power of God overcomes Satan (something rarely seen in horror), as well as using the cross and the name Jesus overtly as a forces of awesome power, but not one of these will be labeled Christian. (At least not by me).

Sometimes we think dropping the word "Christian" on the front of something changes it, like a drama is something other than a drama or a comedy is something other than a comedy, but it's not. Most times it's just a drama, comedy or etc with a heavy handed message clumsily added in.

-Nate
 
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Yep.

I live 45 minutes from where flywheel, facing the giants, and fireproof were shot. I could have easily decided to shoot a "christian" film, and I would have had people busting my doors down to try and help with it, because as Nathyn mentions. Christians support each other, and they could care less if the story is good or not. They support anything with that label on it. I won't ever do a faith based film either, because I don't want anyone thinking that I only chose to do that because I knew it would be easy to get funds/help. I wanted to make films I enjoy. I enjoy horror. Anyway, enough derailing.. great job!
 
The thing about "No Greater Love" is it is it seems to be about people. And many people are dealing with a loved one leaving or abandoning them. It's a great subject to deal with. You can see that in the trailer. (Though I did at one point think the original trailer was a bit Churchy. But I liked what I saw). Another film I wanted to see was Oversold. Both peeked my interest because of the story, (Inside this action guy is a romantic you know) not because they were Christian films but because they hooked me with the stories and if anything made me want to see how the Christian element would work in the story.
jls4 said:
That's why I say it's nothing wrong with a hidden agenda. If the goal of a movie is to turn people to Christ what's wrong with that. If you have a movie that is all T and A, I wouldn't believe you if you said you didn't think young boys 13 to 21 would be watching this movie - espeically those who don't have girlfriends. :2vrolijk_08:
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What I find is you don't even have to hide your agenda if you tell a good story. Why hide it? I'll tell you all about it. Just give me an 90 minutes of your time (give or take a few minutes). In fact I've gotten more of what I've wanted out of life in general by being straight forward. "Yea, it's got some Bible stuff in there. Yeah, a lot. Um...so you in our out....okay, well let me know cause I got other people I need to get to talk to.....yeah thanks" And if someone doesn't want to associate with me because the film has that Biblical element, then it's a good chance they probably won't be in any of my films and I probably won't ask again. If they don't want to watch my film, then that's fine too. It's like the atheist dude that asked to review my film (I don't think he really knew what it was about), well that review never appeared and amazingly he never wrote me again. LOL. On the flipside, dude at yourvideostoreshelf.com was also an atheist and he's been one of the most supportive of my films.

-Nate
 
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Nathyn said:
What I find is you don't even have to hide your agenda if you tell a good story. Why hide it? I'll tell you all about it. Just give me an 90 minutes of your time (give or take a few minutes). In fact I've gotten more of what I've wanted out of life in general by being straight forward. "Yea, it's got some Bible stuff in there. Yeah, a lot. Um...so you in our out....okay, well let me know cause I got other people I need to get to talk to.....yeah thanks" And if someone doesn't want to associate with me because the film has that Biblical element, then it's a good chance they probably won't be in any of my films and I probably won't ask again. If they don't want to watch my film, then that's fine too. It's like the atheist dude that asked to review my film (I don't think he really knew what it was about), well that review never appeared and amazingly he never wrote me again. LOL. On the flipside, dude at yourvideostoreshelf.com was also an atheist and he's been one of the most supportive of my films.
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Everybody has what they like. I applaud all DVXusers for being true to themselves and making feature they can be proud of. Ultimately that's all you can do. You need to be able to pop your movie in 3 years after you put in the last frame/last bit of audio and say - "Wow I still like this movie."
 
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