No budget sound

[ojd]

Hello, first post. Long time still photographer but new to video. Have started dabbling with my 5dmkii for video. Don't have the funds to buy a whole lot of stuff for this, but may do so if I like it. I don't use my 5d as my main camera for still photography, I'm more of a 8x10 or 4x5 type of person.

Okay, that's the intro. Now questions. I found stuff lying around and collected stuff here and there that I thought could be good to use for video. Also had some ideas recordingwise which I would have liked to have either acknowledged as good or whimsical. I have an idea for a 7-9 minute documentary which will be shot indoors, with about 2.6 m ceiling height and fairly small rooms. My tests and what I've read shows the internal mic is dreadful. Today I have a small sony stereo mic, a ecm-ms907, not very good really, but I thought I could maybe use it on a boom? I also have two electret mics which I had this idea of putting on two light stands for recording stereo ambient sounds. I have a small table top mixer with decent preamps. Would this setup have any pros to using just the onboard mics in the 5d? I also thought of using a proffessional sony datrecorder (a bit obsolete, but I got it for free and it is supposed to have decent preamps, plus, runs on batteries and has a shoulder bag), would that suffice as a external recorder? I have a pretty good external soundcard for my laptop to transfer with. If the dat is useless I'll just use the whole laptop instead. And if my mics are considered crap I'll borrow studio mics from a musician friend instead. But such a nuisance to borrow stuff. I just don't want the 5d to be the limiting factor. We are two people on this project and one will do the audio and one filming, (and both doing grip).

 

[Alex H.]

Welcome to DVXUser, ojd.

You might want to do some reading first, starting with the yellow "sticky" threads at the top of the sound forum. They're full of useful information, and there are already several answers around here to many of your questions. The search function here can also be your friend, though it doesn't search three-letter words like "DAT".

You've at least gotten yourself over an important first hurdle in your research by realizing that the camera's built-in mic is worthless. There's more to it than that, and again the stickies will be a good place to read up. Also, consider getting the "Sound for Film and Television" DVD from the DVXUser store (link in the "Audio 101" sticky).

But to get you started:

- Stereo mics are useless for dialog. Dialog is a mono source, and needs a single mic to record. It's going to be centered in the final mix anyway, so recording it in stereo simply adds complications in post. The stickies have lots of information on mic selection.
- Recording stereo ambient sounds at the same time as recording dialog is not going to help you. Your goal is to get clean and clear dialog, and that comes from two main things: proper mic selection, and proper placement of that mic. The stickies also have links to great info on placement/use of the mics.
- Your DAT recorder may, in the long run, be obsolete, but if it is what is available to you and you have tape stock, you can get great results from it. (There are some days I still miss my portable DAT recorder, though I still have one in my studio rack.) As long as your sound card has a digital input that is compatible with your DAT recorder's digital output... if it's only analog, then you're sacrificing the benefit of digital recording by having to go through an analog generation in capturing your audio to computer. Get a dumb slate (clapper board), though, or if you have an iPhone/iPad there are slate apps that are very functional. This will be your friend for recording non-sync, double-system sound. Check out the "$300 recorder" sticky for information on what today's digital recorders have to offer. Nowadays, we record to solid-state media and file transfer is instantaneous to computer, rather than the real-time capture from tape, but again the DAT recorder may still be of use for this project if you don't have a budget to buy/rent something better.

 

[ojd]

Welcome to DVXUser, ojd.

You might want to do some reading first, starting with the yellow "sticky" threads at the top of the sound forum. They're full of useful information, and there are already several answers around here to many of your questions. The search function here can also be your friend, though it doesn't search three-letter words like "DAT".

You've at least gotten yourself over an important first hurdle in your research by realizing that the camera's built-in mic is worthless. There's more to it than that, and again the stickies will be a good place to read up. Also, consider getting the "Sound for Film and Television" DVD from the DVXUser store (link in the "Audio 101" sticky).

But to get you started:

- Stereo mics are useless for dialog. Dialog is a mono source, and needs a single mic to record. It's going to be centered in the final mix anyway, so recording it in stereo simply adds complications in post. The stickies have lots of information on mic selection.
- Recording stereo ambient sounds at the same time as recording dialog is not going to help you. Your goal is to get clean and clear dialog, and that comes from two main things: proper mic selection, and proper placement of that mic. The stickies also have links to great info on placement/use of the mics.
- Your DAT recorder may, in the long run, be obsolete, but if it is what is available to you and you have tape stock, you can get great results from it. (There are some days I still miss my portable DAT recorder, though I still have one in my studio rack.) As long as your sound card has a digital input that is compatible with your DAT recorder's digital output... if it's only analog, then you're sacrificing the benefit of digital recording by having to go through an analog generation in capturing your audio to computer. Get a dumb slate (clapper board), though, or if you have an iPhone/iPad there are slate apps that are very functional. This will be your friend for recording non-sync, double-system sound. Check out the "$300 recorder" sticky for information on what today's digital recorders have to offer. Nowadays, we record to solid-state media and file transfer is instantaneous to computer, rather than the real-time capture from tape, but again the DAT recorder may still be of use for this project if you don't have a budget to buy/rent something better.

Thanks for your answer. I do have matching input output digitally, so no quality loss. I will probably borrow or rent mics instead of buying low-end gear. I've gone thru that whole newbie gear to high-end too many times. I feel it's better to learn what you need according to ambition level and budget than to run out and buy cheapest possible hot shoe shotgun that looks "pro" but really isn't what I need. I prefer appearant complexity with good results than simplicity and ok results. And besides testing & trials are important learnings steps. And fun!

I don't have a mic boom but I do have alu booms for light stands that I think will suffice for now. Would it be okay to put a mic up on a boom on a stand to free one person up? Or are there any drawbacks? Subject will be sitting mostly..

 

[Alex H.]

I feel it's better to learn what you need according to ambition level and budget than to run out and buy cheapest possible hot shoe shotgun that looks "pro" but really isn't what I need.

Newbie quote of the year!

I don't have a mic boom but I do have alu booms for light stands that I think will suffice for now. Would it be okay to put a mic up on a boom on a stand to free one person up? Or are there any drawbacks? Subject will be sitting mostly..

If it's for seated interviews, a mic stand with a boom arm is perfectly fine. You can pick one up for about $25 at the music store. Just be sure to have a decent shock isolation mount for the mic.

A hand-held boom/fish pole is only necessary when there's movement.

 

[Steve House]

...
I don't have a mic boom but I do have alu booms for light stands that I think will suffice for now. Would it be okay to put a mic up on a boom on a stand to free one person up? Or are there any drawbacks? Subject will be sitting mostly..

Boom on a stand is certainly possible but for dialog is usually not so good. The problem is aiming and working distance. A mic needs to be within about 20 inches of the subject for dialog and needs to be aimed rather precisely - this usually means a human boom operator holding the boom over his head so he can position the mic just in front of and over the subject, just out of the frame line and following the subject's motion through the take.

 

[paulears]

A superb mic in the wrong position will be worse than an average one in a good position. DAT as mentioned above, may well be old hat now, but if you have one in working order, then sonically they can be still worth their backspace. I've still got my old Panasonic in the rack, in use every day in the studio converting a digital signal to analogue. I can still play the old DAT tapes I keep finding all over the places.

Before you hire, why not try out what you have? One half of the stereo mic going into the DAT, and then have a really good listen. You could find that with careful positioning, the sound may be really a surprise. Equally, it could be rubbish. A test will answer this one very quickly.

 

[Richard Crowley]

Just for fun, one day I'd like to go over to one of the video forums and describe all my audio gear and ask how I can shoot good footage with "No-budget video". Whaddya think would happen? :happy:

 

[MattinSTL]

There's an evolution of frustration that everybody goes through in the pursuit of "good sound"... and as you get better at overcoming obstacles... your standards for what constitutes good sound will raise. You've already been given the best advice... which is use what you have... the closest mic wins... and if your taste evolves, expect to spend some money.

There's something about sound that makes the inexperienced come kicking and dragging into the reality that it takes effort, skill, equipment, and caring... to get a professional result... but why not start with what you have and see what you can do with it.

I'm also a big fan of writing to your weaknesses... i.e. shoot stuff that allows you to work with what you have.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

Just for fun, one day I'd like to go over to one of the video forums and describe all my audio gear and ask how I can shoot good footage with "No-budget video". Whaddya think would happen? :happy:

You'll be pointed to the iPhone that was used in the Zacuto 'Revenge' shoot out earlier this year. I also think the 'advice' would be given that more time and effort needs to be spent in setting up lighting that allows the limited range of the iPhone to be effective. And of course the reminder that while one can often get something 'interesting' out of an iPhone... there's a reason why an Arri Alexa 'basic kit' costs $89K or so... and why the Fujinon lens used in the Zacuto shootout for a number of cameras itself has an $80K+ price tag.

But otherwise, have at it.

There are also several other sections beyond 'cinematography' for various cameras, Canon, Panasonic, Sony, and the various models and families, ranging from the 'low end' of the Lumix G series, the Canon T2/3i series, (I don't keep up on the low end Sony DSLRs...) up to much pricier and presumably more 'capable' relative to certain parameters.

The Audio section is not so categorized.

Same is true for the Software. While there are several Apps that have their own sections, Avid, FCP, FCPX, Adobe, and Vegas, there are no similar subdivisions of audio software tools, with attendant price points.

As a note, I noticed that the forum does not have specific departments for such camera 'standards' as ARRI's, or even now the Alexa, or such popular with the 'low cost' set, for some value of low cost... the RED. It does have a link to the Black Magic Camera, which could be classed as a 'low' to mid price camera given the high price of the 'hollywood standards'...

 

[ojd]

Just for fun, one day I'd like to go over to one of the video forums and describe all my audio gear and ask how I can shoot good footage with "No-budget video". Whaddya think would happen? :happy:

Not sure if you're trying to be funny or sarcastic? But I understand your point. However your statement is biased. If you had a device capable of recording very good audio but so-so video and you wanted to get better video without spending too much the situation would be equivalent. And my dat would maybe translate to some dv- or betacam?

 

[ojd]

Thanks everybody for your input. Gonna make some tests today and see how I find it.

And by the way, I have a fujinon lens for my 5d! (That's an old m42 lens inherited from my granddad, but don't tell anyone, that fujinon ebc splash on the business end of my camera makes me feel good.)

 

[MattinSTL]

I get where Richard's coming from... this is a perennial question (is per-week-lial a word?)... at least with video most people accept what they get by what they see in the end result. Good sound is less tangible. People don't always talk about how they got good audio... i.e. what they used and their techniques, so I understand this subject coming up repeatedly.

Again... seriously... the honest answer is control noise by getting into the quietest space you can, then get whatever mic you're using as close as you can get it. Also, if you can only record directly into your cam... that's going to cap your audio quality. You can get a zoom recorder for $50... then download one of the 19hz (or whatever it is) tone-tracks (it is simply a low hum, below hearing, but enough to keep the cam's automatic level from pumping when you use a splitter cable to feed the cam)... and if you do all that, you should improve your audio quite a bit.

 

[paulears]

I think if we swapped video and audio around this way it really would be a bit of a joke! We really would have strange questions. Think of all the misunderstandings there would be. I want to shoot wide vista like landscape shots, and I've got access to a telephoto lens with a mount for my camera, or I can use a telescope my grandfather said was very good as it had excellent optics. I've got $50 to spend and hope to be able to have enough spare to buy a tripod.

I genuinely feel that the sound questions are often that extreme, but the people are deadly serious, sound doesn't really matter, or cost to do properly.

Obviously it's never this silly - but would we actually have a 'no budget video' question?

 

[MattinSTL]

Paul... that's why I was chiming in... in support of Richard's comment. I do have to laugh at how little respect is given to sound... at lower levels of production, but my attitude about that is changing. These days I don't discourage people for having high expectations with little effort or no investment. The reality is that getting great sound isn't "magic"... but there are so many people who, for some reason, THINK that... well... I think it's good for business.

So when somebody wants to get good sound without spending anything, I'm willing to offer whatever "triage advice" I can... reciting the most basic of audio 101 repeatedly... while knowing that a truly professional outcome is unlikely... since there's no professionals or professional tools involved... however... I also live by a simple mantra while freelancing... "If you're happy then I'm happy". Most likely... the OP here will be satisfied with improved audio over what they've been getting... and ideally, they aren't expecting too much beyond significant improvements based on the advice in this thread.

Now... in the real world of real production? It takes a lot of gear, used properly, to get "broadcast quality".

*shrug*

 

[David Jimerson]

Obviously it's never this silly - but would we actually have a 'no budget video' question?

Well . . . yeah. All the time.

 

[ojd]

I understand the frustration you audio pro's must feel for these questions but to be honest this wasn't just asking about making better audio with no budget, but rather if my ideas would improve the quality of the 5d baseline. I sure don't expect broadcast quality. And I can understand how you feel about people spending $2000 on a camera and the same amount on a "rig" and then using a single shotgun mic and worklights. Trust me, I know that no system is better than it's weakest link. But right now I need a new profoto generator than I need mics. So I'm stuck with what I've got and can borrow. And I except results accordingly. No desillusions of broadcast quality.

So more questions, there's a lot talk of blanketing. What blankets can you use? Is it a product or can I use household blankets?

Would mics from a music studio do any good. As mentioned in the OP, a musician friend has a lot of music studio gear. I think he had a lot of mics for vocals, most are phantom powered so would need a bigger mixer (heavier and more stuff to schlepp around). Would they work? Or are they more suited to clinical studio settings?

Tried the utter low end mics. The sony stereo mic was way worse than the generic 70's electret mics. The stereo mic had to be inches from the mouth to get anything useful. Maybe a sign of poor preamps?

 

[Steve House]

...
So more questions, there's a lot talk of blanketing. What blankets can you use? Is it a product or can I use household blankets?

Sound blankets are a good deal thicker than normal bedding blankets, more like a duvet. A good budget alternative would be moving blankets

Would mics from a music studio do any good. As mentioned in the OP, a musician friend has a lot of music studio gear. I think he had a lot of mics for vocals, most are phantom powered so would need a bigger mixer (heavier and more stuff to schlepp around). Would they work? Or are they more suited to clinical studio settings?

Depends on the precise type of mics they are. Large diaphragm mics used for studio vocals would be cumbersome, not very well suited for most location work. But small diaphragm 'pencil' mics, especially with a hypercardioid pattern, could be quite useful on a boom.

Tried the utter low end mics. The sony stereo mic was way worse than the generic 70's electret mics. The stereo mic had to be inches from the mouth to get anything useful. Maybe a sign of poor preamps?

Such is the nature of most mics, from the cheapest up to the most expensive. Those studio mics you alluded to earlier, even top-line mics costing several thousands of dollars feeding into expensive boutique preamps, will usually be used between 2 to 4 inches from the talent's mouth. Go spend $2000 on a Schoeps hyper or better than 3 grand for a Schoeps or Neuman shotgun and over 10 grand for a Cooper or Sonosax mixer and you'll find you still need to keep the mic within about 18 inches from your subject's mouth for optimum sounding results. Mic's are close working devices by their nature.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

I think if we swapped video and audio around this way it really would be a bit of a joke! We really would have strange questions. Think of all the misunderstandings there would be. I want to shoot wide vista like landscape shots, and I've got access to a telephoto lens with a mount for my camera, or I can use a telescope my grandfather said was very good as it had excellent optics. I've got $50 to spend and hope to be able to have enough spare to buy a tripod.

I genuinely feel that the sound questions are often that extreme, but the people are deadly serious, sound doesn't really matter, or cost to do properly.

Obviously it's never this silly - but would we actually have a 'no budget video' question?

Don't worry, there are those who come into the 'visual' sections asking such questions... While the questions sometimes are as 'obvious' as 'I have a telephoto and I want a 'wide' shot', there are frequently questions about I have X lens, X camera, can I get X shot...

And for an on line search worth's of time, one can come up with a 'free' calculator that will answer that question for many camera+lens combos. I now recommend getting one of 2 iPhone apps that address this sort of question, and the ever popular Depth of Field question...

Some of the posters who do make their 'daily' bread form cinematography also answer such questions, and refer to more 'pro' equipment solutions.

The other frequent enough topic is artifacts due to the 'low cost' camera the poster is using... There's a reason for the high cost of the high end solution... and it is not just due to a few letters on a logo... (well hopefully...).

And sure, some times one has to say 'You can't get there from here'... for a given type of camera, and a given nolo budget.

I personally can't do a 'tracking' or 'crane' shot with pro equip due to the cost of renting such.... the 'closest I can come to a 'tracking' shot is using my dead mother's wheelchair... Ok, on my last short film I used a hand pallet dolly, with the camera, camera man and boom guy on the dolly... sure I got 'road noise'... wait... that's a sound problem... anyway.. it took a few takes to get the motion worked out... Would it compete with current 'pro' technique? no question that 'solution' is inferior to any 'pro' device....

The point being, is there is often a discussion about how to use minimal equipment to get an effect, as well as a DIY section, with many DIY projects are addressing how to make 'better' nolo budget equipment to make better film technique.

In the Sound Dept, one has a few stickies, but often 'low/no' cost solutions are sort of stumbled upon...