FS7: No 24p 4k output to monitor.

JPNola

JPNola

Veteran
Just had my first shoot where it was an issue. Shooting handheld inside a vehicle and the Producer wanted to be able to see my shot. But I had to explain that such isn't possible with the Fs7 ( or with the F5 / F55 ) when shooing 24p 4K, even though I had my beloved Small HD OLED DP7 with me. Of course, some might argue that a Producer being forced to just trust you and not being able to second-guess you on every shot is a blessing.

Which cameras will output 24p 4k to a monitor? Will the Amira?

So much to know about all the different camera models. In the last 30 days I've shot with a Sony Fs7, a Sony F55, a C-300, an ARRI Amira, a Sony PMW 350, a Sony FS100, a Sony PDW-750, a Panasonic AF-100, an Osmo, and GoPro's. So many different cameras and when you jump back and forth between camera models it takes a while for memory of that particular camera model to kick back in again. I felt like an idiot on a recent job when it took me a few minutes to recall how to perform a manual white balance on the F55 ( it's menu activated) and I'm hoping the client isn't noticing my difficulty. My Sound Op provided me with comfort when he had to ask "How the hell do you adjust the audio monitor level on this one??". I love my Sound Ops who will just blurt stuff out like that in front of the client and, ironically, aren't worried about the sound of it.
 
You can send an HD signal to your producer when shooting 4K 24p..very easily .. by one BNC SDI out.. I do the all the time with an F5... Im sure the fs7 can do the same.. they dont need to actually see it 4K 99% of the time.. they just want to see the frame and performance of actors..

I believe both the f5 and f55 you can actually out put 4K.. using all the SDI outs..dont know about the fs7.. maybe not.. only 2 SDI outs ?

There are some cheaper monitors that wont deal with 24p.. but I wouldn't blame the camera for that..

Also why I only work with my own camera.. you get paid more.. alot less hassle.. and in this day an age .. as long as you have 17-9 4K.. your totally covered..
 
Why do you need 4K for a shot reference? Is HD not enough? How would you take advantage of 4K signal if your monitor was Small HD DP7 anyway? While 24p 4K mode does limit SDI output options to 1080 PsF only, I would assume that DP7 can take that signal? If not, why not simply use HDMI output?
 
broughtonfilm said:
Why do you need 4K for a shot reference? Is HD not enough? How would you take advantage of 4K signal if your monitor was Small HD DP7 anyway? While 24p 4K mode does limit SDI output options to 1080 PsF only, I would assume that DP7 can take that signal? If not, why not simply use HDMI output?
Click to expand...

I wasn't clear- I was in 24p 4K and could not get an image- ANY image, on my SmallHD monitor. I tried SDI out, HDMI. It said "No signal" no matter what I did. I did some searching online to troubleshoot and found the following which, I believe, indicates the issue is my Small HD AC-7:

"I pointed this out to Sony 2 years ago (with the F55) and they have more or less come back and indicated there is no way for them to apply a 2-3 pull to convert 24fps to 60i to support legacy monitors or devices.

This is why your monitor works when the camera is in 29.97p, 25p and 60p modes (because they are compatible with 50i and 60i) but not 24p. The F5 and FS7 have this same problem." Starcentral, dvxuser

and this:

"I can confirm that I am not getting UHD HDMI out at 4k 23.98 on a monitor I rented. A 7' Phottix.
It does work at 59.94. Super frustrating thing to try to explain to clients. "Oh, it's a Sony thing...sorry."

(Posted this same message over on the F55 board where they were wondering if the same thing was happeing with the FS7)" - Sony Community Forum

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So now I am thinking I am mistaken and my title for this thread should have been "No 24p 4k output to MY monitor" - the Fs7 WILL output to a monitor when in 24p 4K but just not to my Small HD OLED AC-7. The reason being that it doesn't support 24 PSF. Correct? Incorrect??

Forgive me my confusion but this is much like Math. And I am terrible at Math. I found this thread but still don't have a clear explanation or solution:

https://community.sony.com/t5/FS7/4K-QFHD-HDMI-output-issue/m-p/551837
 
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My Panasonic BT-LH900 takes the only SDI signal available in this format, the 1080 24PsF with no problem. My crappy Samsung 21" computer monitor takes the HDMI output in the same format, again, no problem.
 
ok I see.. I have the same monitor as B film BT LH900.. and TV Logic 58W..it works for anything I have sent it for the past 6 years or so.. Im surprised these much newer monitors cant deal with it.. Ive found over the last 2-3 years that 23.98p has become the most requested frame rate for me.. all TV.. /Corp.. no cinema stuff..
 
Donny 123 said:
ok I see.. I have the same monitor as B film BT LH900.. and TV Logic 58W..it works for anything I have sent it for the past 6 years or so.. Im surprised these much newer monitors cant deal with it.. Ive found over the last 2-3 years that 23.98p has become the most requested frame rate for me.. all TV.. /Corp.. no cinema stuff..
Click to expand...

The SmallHD AC-7 OLED I own is several years old. SmallHD first released the model in 2014.


"TV Logic 58W works for anything I have sent it for the past 6 years or so."

Just to clarify- you are saying when the Fs7 is in 24p 4K mode the TV logic is able to receive a 24p 1080p image via the SDI-Out of the Sony Fs7?



_____________


4K SDI out?

Apparently the Fs5 can send a 4K signal ( QFHD ) via SDI out, but when enabled the recorded image does not appear on the VF / on-board LCD. ( as goofy and as limiting as that is. )

The FS700 can send 4K raw via SDI out.

Black Magic can, since they developed their own 4K SDI signal.

What about the F5? F55? Amira? Red(s)? C500? C700?

ARRI can send 4K via SDI using ARRI T-Link Protocol?

and then this:

"One of the most confounding aspects of 4K video production is the lack of accepted standards. And like many other parts of the emerging 4K workflow, 4K video signals are done in many different ways. The biggest problem is that there is still no broadcast standardized SMPTE 4K signal.

Without a supported professional method for distributing 4K most companies have had to improvise. Some use multiple existing HD video signals simultaneously and stitch them together, as is the case with Quad-Link HD-SDI. Other 4K products use existing consumer 4K standards, such as HDMI 1.4. One company even developed their own 4K signal.

Blackmagic Design seemingly got tired of waiting for SMPTE to finalize a 4K signal and went ahead and released their own. Blackmagic Design calls their 4K signal 6G-SDI, but it is important to note that 6G-SDI is not a standard. When or if SMPTE standardizes a 4K signal they may or may not decide to call it 6G-SDI. And there is chance whatever SMPTE 6G-SDI ends up being it will not be compatible with Blackmagic's iteration of it."


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/4k/4k-video-signal-guide



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I hate video engineering. I just want to be able to provide my client an monitoring image when I am shooting in 24p 4k. Apparently that isn't possible with my AC-7 OLED monitor. An Odyssey Q7+ is in my near future. It would be stupid to drop $1500 on a SmallHD 702 when the Q7+ is only $300 more in price, right?
 
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How about this one - JP... I've got a cheap 7" HD monitor (Elvid) that I use occasionally for R&G style shoots - simply for the client to be able to see my framing. It will display the 23.98 hdmi signal from the FS7, but I sometimes need to unplug the hdmi from camera end and replug for it to work (especially if I turn the monitor on before booting up camera). Errgggghhhh.
 
markfpv said:
How about this one - JP... I've got a cheap 7" HD monitor (Elvid) that I use occasionally for R&G style shoots - simply for the client to be able to see my framing. It will display the 23.98 hdmi signal from the FS7, but I sometimes need to unplug the hdmi from camera end and replug for it to work (especially if I turn the monitor on before booting up camera). Errgggghhhh.
Click to expand...

JP is talking about 24p, not 23.98p. In either case - SmallHD monitors are total crap.
 
"JP is talking about 24p, not 23.98p. In either case - SmallHD monitors are total crap."


Actually, was speaking of 23.98p. Or rather, " 23.976p". I fell into using the shorthand.

Let's use "24p" and "True 24p". The latter is rarely ever shot and most cameras cannot shoot True 24p. So when someone says "24p" they almost always mean 23.98p.
 
JPNola said:
"JP is talking about 24p, not 23.98p. In either case - SmallHD monitors are total crap."


Actually, was speaking of 23.98p. Or rather, " 23.976p". I fell into using the shorthand.

Let's use "24p" and "True 24p". The latter is rarely ever shot and most cameras cannot shoot True 24p. So when someone says "24p" they almost always mean 23.98p.
Click to expand...

Well, FS7 does shoot both 24p and 23.98p.
 
Sorry fellas for derailing the thread... just my own personal ***** - but I suppose I should be glad I spent the coin on a cheap off brand and not the Small HD - which I understand is now under the Vitec umbrella.
 
JPNola said:
I just want to be able to provide my client an monitoring image when I am shooting in 24p 4k. Apparently that isn't possible with my AC-7 OLED monitor. An Odyssey Q7+ is in my near future. It would be stupid to drop $1500 on a SmallHD 702 when the Q7+ is only $300 more in price, right?
Click to expand...
That was my thought exactly when I bought the Pix E5 - which does work with 4k / UHD & 1080 @ 23.98 via the hdmi and 1080 sdi signal for when clients want both a small monitor and ProRes and/or proxy files. ( The 7Q+ is a great recorder / monitor too.)
 
Braindead@70 said:
Really!? I don't think so.
Click to expand...

Yes, overpriced and crap. A robbery. The worst customer service ever. If monitors costing 1/10th of their offerings can display what SmallHD's can't then what can you say about them. While checking if it was possible to output 1080p 24p and 23.98p when in 4K format, I plugged it to a sub $100 Samsung computer monitor - it had no problems with displaying the images. The dedicated and expensive Small HD "professional" video monitor can't do it. It's crap. Crap.
 
I believe that F55 has far more available options when it comes to the SDI output format when shooting 4K. In FS7 it is limited to 1080 PsF, no interlaced output with 2-3 pulldown is available, plus the HDMI output.
 
JPNola said:
The SmallHD AC-7 OLED I own is several years old. SmallHD first released the model in 2014.


"TV Logic 58W works for anything I have sent it for the past 6 years or so."

Just to clarify- you are saying when the Fs7 is in 24p 4K mode the TV logic is able to receive a 24p 1080p image via the SDI-Out of the Sony Fs7?



_____________


4K SDI out?

Apparently the Fs5 can send a 4K signal ( QFHD ) via SDI out, but when enabled the recorded image does not appear on the VF / on-board LCD. ( as goofy and as limiting as that is. )

The FS700 can send 4K raw via SDI out.

Black Magic can, since they developed their own 4K SDI signal.

What about the F5? F55? Amira? Red(s)? C500? C700?

ARRI can send 4K via SDI using ARRI T-Link Protocol?

and then this:

"One of the most confounding aspects of 4K video production is the lack of accepted standards. And like many other parts of the emerging 4K workflow, 4K video signals are done in many different ways. The biggest problem is that there is still no broadcast standardized SMPTE 4K signal.

Without a supported professional method for distributing 4K most companies have had to improvise. Some use multiple existing HD video signals simultaneously and stitch them together, as is the case with Quad-Link HD-SDI. Other 4K products use existing consumer 4K standards, such as HDMI 1.4. One company even developed their own 4K signal.

Blackmagic Design seemingly got tired of waiting for SMPTE to finalize a 4K signal and went ahead and released their own. Blackmagic Design calls their 4K signal 6G-SDI, but it is important to note that 6G-SDI is not a standard. When or if SMPTE standardizes a 4K signal they may or may not decide to call it 6G-SDI. And there is chance whatever SMPTE 6G-SDI ends up being it will not be compatible with Blackmagic's iteration of it."


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/4k/4k-video-signal-guide



_____________



I hate video engineering. I just want to be able to provide my client an monitoring image when I am shooting in 24p 4k. Apparently that isn't possible with my AC-7 OLED monitor. An Odyssey Q7+ is in my near future. It would be stupid to drop $1500 on a SmallHD 702 when the Q7+ is only $300 more in price, right?
Click to expand...

I was talking about f5..just point was although shooting in 4K.. you can output an HD image.. but that wasn't what you were talking about..the issue is with your monitor.. the pana BT and the TV logic 58W.. have worked with any frame rate @ HD /2K/UHD and 4K.. so far that I have used.. including 23.98p.. from SDI.. never used HDMI..both the f5 and f55 can out put a 4K signal ..
 
Do you have your output set to PSF? That's often necessary. Also make sure its set to out HD rather than 4K but with SDI that's probably not an issue , but I would check my output settings. Sometimes I've had to reset my settings after trying 4K to HDMI out so I would turn HDMI off nad restart the camera. Frankly I can't remember exactly what I did. Just futzed till it worked, but I don't have that monitor.
 
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