NLE...WHICH ONE?
- Thread starter illLOGIC
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Re: NLE...WHICH ONE?
Hey Newbie,
I myself have Avid Xpress Pro. While I enjoy the interface and its capabilities, I think I should have went with RT!00 Extreme Matrox card with Premiere Pro 1.5. If you are going with the DVX, Premiere does not need extra hardware to ouput true 24p whereas the Avid needs $1700 for the mojo and the same price for the Avid software to output true 24p. THat is $3400 for hardware and software(I think there is a deal) You can bring in 24p but cannot output true 24p.
Also Avid Xpress Pro does not allow for newer capture cards like AJA and Decklink which would allow SD 10 bit video to be captured for more broadcast and professional work at a reasonable price. And, I don't think they will when they have there MOJO as their capture\hardware. IF you have never used NLEs before I would say go with Premiere. You can download premiere full functioning demo from there website. I think AVID has a free demo as well.
I hope this clear. Check these companies out for what you need.
Matrox
Avid
Decklink
AJA Kona
Adobe
Hey Newbie,
I myself have Avid Xpress Pro. While I enjoy the interface and its capabilities, I think I should have went with RT!00 Extreme Matrox card with Premiere Pro 1.5. If you are going with the DVX, Premiere does not need extra hardware to ouput true 24p whereas the Avid needs $1700 for the mojo and the same price for the Avid software to output true 24p. THat is $3400 for hardware and software(I think there is a deal) You can bring in 24p but cannot output true 24p.
Also Avid Xpress Pro does not allow for newer capture cards like AJA and Decklink which would allow SD 10 bit video to be captured for more broadcast and professional work at a reasonable price. And, I don't think they will when they have there MOJO as their capture\hardware. IF you have never used NLEs before I would say go with Premiere. You can download premiere full functioning demo from there website. I think AVID has a free demo as well.
I hope this clear. Check these companies out for what you need.
Matrox
Avid
Decklink
AJA Kona
Adobe
krestofre
Knight of the Holy Order
Re: NLE...WHICH ONE?
If you search the forums for this then it's been addressed many times ... but I've never chimed in on the discussion, so I thought I would now. ;D
When it's all said and done a NLE is just a tool. When cutting a piece of wood you don't need a specific brand of saw, you just need a saw. Whatever NLE you end up picking you owe it to yourself to learn that NLE like the back of your hand. The NLE doesn't make good edits, an editor does. Most professional editors that I've worked with can cut masterpieces on any piece of software you hand them. There might be preferences, but as long as it can take two clips and put them next to each other you can make a film with any NLE.
Let me add another disclaimer. I'm dyed in the wool Avid. I will cut on whatever I need to cut on, but if I have a choice then it's Avid hands down. I'll try to be unbiased in my reply, but take it with a grain of salt because I prefer Avid that much. Now with those disclaimers, here's my take on the big ones:
Vegas Video - Relatively cheap in price with a nice feature set--esspecially for working with audio. I know some people who cut their films in X NLE and then import into Vegas to do audio work. Personally I HATE the interface. It drives me crazy. Thus when sitting in front of Vegas I tend not to get a lot of work done because I'm fighting the interface. Still a lot of people really like it. When I started reading this forum I was surprised how many people successfully used Vegas.
Adobe Premier - I have some experience with Premier, and I'm not too fond of it either. In my experience it wasn't very stable (other will tell you it's rock solid, but I didn't experience that). I've never had Avid give me a hiccup that stopped me from working, I've had issues that I had to work around, but nothing that stopped me dead. I can't say that from Premier. The interface is a little clunky, but managable. I also found it somewhat slow, but I didn't have the best hardware acceleration components at the time.
Final Cut Pro - I hate Macs, but I can use FCP. It's a well designed piece of software and is very robust in its features. The interface more or less makes sense, it's got some Mac specific ways of thinking which I find awkward, but I have no problem with FCP. It can get pretty expensive esspecially if you add on Aja boards, etc. to get more real time out of it. If you're talking software only then it's definitely worth the price.
Avid Xpress Pro - Ah, my Avid. For me it's the best on out there. The interface makes sense to me. I can fly on an Avid (meaning I can cut faster on it than any other system). Also, it's still the industry standard so if you think you might like to edit for someone else someday it would pay to learn Avid. It does suffer a bit in the audio area though, so you should be prepared to take your audio out of Avid, mix it elsewhere, and reimport it (see, I told you I'd be fair
). Now here's the kicker. If you can afford Avid Xpress Pro with Mojo, then none of the other choices will ever compare. Xpress Pro by itself is an extremely powerful NLE, but adding Mojo turns it into a Nascar while everyone else is driving a Pinto.
Now some people may argue that FCP can be just as powerful as Xpress Pro with Mojo. That's true but then you have to weigh price. To make FCP as powerful as Xpress Pro with Mojo then you're going to spend A LOT more money.
So the short of it is that Avid Xpress Pro is my preferred. Final Cut Pro would be my preference if I couldn't use Avid. I'd use Premier if I had to. And I'd rather not touch Vegas with a stick (nothing against Vegas, it's a fine tool, it's just not for me).
Whew! Long post!
Chris
If you search the forums for this then it's been addressed many times ... but I've never chimed in on the discussion, so I thought I would now. ;D
When it's all said and done a NLE is just a tool. When cutting a piece of wood you don't need a specific brand of saw, you just need a saw. Whatever NLE you end up picking you owe it to yourself to learn that NLE like the back of your hand. The NLE doesn't make good edits, an editor does. Most professional editors that I've worked with can cut masterpieces on any piece of software you hand them. There might be preferences, but as long as it can take two clips and put them next to each other you can make a film with any NLE.
Let me add another disclaimer. I'm dyed in the wool Avid. I will cut on whatever I need to cut on, but if I have a choice then it's Avid hands down. I'll try to be unbiased in my reply, but take it with a grain of salt because I prefer Avid that much. Now with those disclaimers, here's my take on the big ones:
Vegas Video - Relatively cheap in price with a nice feature set--esspecially for working with audio. I know some people who cut their films in X NLE and then import into Vegas to do audio work. Personally I HATE the interface. It drives me crazy. Thus when sitting in front of Vegas I tend not to get a lot of work done because I'm fighting the interface. Still a lot of people really like it. When I started reading this forum I was surprised how many people successfully used Vegas.
Adobe Premier - I have some experience with Premier, and I'm not too fond of it either. In my experience it wasn't very stable (other will tell you it's rock solid, but I didn't experience that). I've never had Avid give me a hiccup that stopped me from working, I've had issues that I had to work around, but nothing that stopped me dead. I can't say that from Premier. The interface is a little clunky, but managable. I also found it somewhat slow, but I didn't have the best hardware acceleration components at the time.
Final Cut Pro - I hate Macs, but I can use FCP. It's a well designed piece of software and is very robust in its features. The interface more or less makes sense, it's got some Mac specific ways of thinking which I find awkward, but I have no problem with FCP. It can get pretty expensive esspecially if you add on Aja boards, etc. to get more real time out of it. If you're talking software only then it's definitely worth the price.
Avid Xpress Pro - Ah, my Avid. For me it's the best on out there. The interface makes sense to me. I can fly on an Avid (meaning I can cut faster on it than any other system). Also, it's still the industry standard so if you think you might like to edit for someone else someday it would pay to learn Avid. It does suffer a bit in the audio area though, so you should be prepared to take your audio out of Avid, mix it elsewhere, and reimport it (see, I told you I'd be fair
). Now here's the kicker. If you can afford Avid Xpress Pro with Mojo, then none of the other choices will ever compare. Xpress Pro by itself is an extremely powerful NLE, but adding Mojo turns it into a Nascar while everyone else is driving a Pinto. Now some people may argue that FCP can be just as powerful as Xpress Pro with Mojo. That's true but then you have to weigh price. To make FCP as powerful as Xpress Pro with Mojo then you're going to spend A LOT more money.
So the short of it is that Avid Xpress Pro is my preferred. Final Cut Pro would be my preference if I couldn't use Avid. I'd use Premier if I had to. And I'd rather not touch Vegas with a stick (nothing against Vegas, it's a fine tool, it's just not for me).
Whew! Long post!
Chris
krestofre
Knight of the Holy Order
Re: NLE...WHICH ONE?
I'm running AXP 4.6 without Mojo (as soon as I have the cash though
)
Studio is an interesting package. It has some big advantages, and some big stumbling blocks.
If you do a lot of audio mixing, and you can afford Studio then go for it. The integration with ProTools and the Digi002 is worth the price of admission.
It's the other pieces of software that I have problems with. Avid FX is just Boris Red with Avid's name on it. I like Boris Red a lot, but I already spent money on Combustion, so I don't really need Red. Avid 3D is a dumbed down version of SoftImage. I've done some 3D stuff, but if I were really going to get into it I would choose 3DStudio Max (because of it's integration with Combustion) or Lightwave. Avid DVD is a rebundled copy of one of the Sonic DVD bundles. I've never been too crazy about Sonic. Cluncky interfaces. I use DVD-Lab to author DVDs. Extremely well designed program, and it was only $100.
Studio is great for people who need extra functionality and didn't provide that functionality for themselves before Avid offered it. I think for me personally it's a little too steep of a price tag for too many things that I don't want. I just wish Avid offered a ProTools Digi002 expansion seperate from Studio, because I DO want those.
There are no differences between the Xpress Pro you're running and the Xpress Pro that comes with Studio. That program will function the same. If you get Studio Complete (with the Digi002) then Avid will exchange your Mojo for a new version that allows for audio sync with the Digi002. If you get Studio Essentials (that comes with the Mbox) then you will keep your current Mojo and just get the added stuff.
Hope that helps!
Chris
I'm running AXP 4.6 without Mojo (as soon as I have the cash though
)Studio is an interesting package. It has some big advantages, and some big stumbling blocks.
If you do a lot of audio mixing, and you can afford Studio then go for it. The integration with ProTools and the Digi002 is worth the price of admission.
It's the other pieces of software that I have problems with. Avid FX is just Boris Red with Avid's name on it. I like Boris Red a lot, but I already spent money on Combustion, so I don't really need Red. Avid 3D is a dumbed down version of SoftImage. I've done some 3D stuff, but if I were really going to get into it I would choose 3DStudio Max (because of it's integration with Combustion) or Lightwave. Avid DVD is a rebundled copy of one of the Sonic DVD bundles. I've never been too crazy about Sonic. Cluncky interfaces. I use DVD-Lab to author DVDs. Extremely well designed program, and it was only $100.
Studio is great for people who need extra functionality and didn't provide that functionality for themselves before Avid offered it. I think for me personally it's a little too steep of a price tag for too many things that I don't want. I just wish Avid offered a ProTools Digi002 expansion seperate from Studio, because I DO want those.
There are no differences between the Xpress Pro you're running and the Xpress Pro that comes with Studio. That program will function the same. If you get Studio Complete (with the Digi002) then Avid will exchange your Mojo for a new version that allows for audio sync with the Digi002. If you get Studio Essentials (that comes with the Mbox) then you will keep your current Mojo and just get the added stuff.
Hope that helps!
Chris
bilgami
Veteran
Re: NLE...WHICH ONE?
by the way chris you mentioned you didnt like sonic for dvd authoring. do you know any thing about the sonic avid dvd authoring and encoder. its expensive but if the price is set high you would hope it was worth it do you know. i dont author dvds any more cuz i had trouble with my sonic reel dvd so now i record straight to my dvd recorder. but would i be able to do that with the avd dvd by chance do you know.
by the way chris you mentioned you didnt like sonic for dvd authoring. do you know any thing about the sonic avid dvd authoring and encoder. its expensive but if the price is set high you would hope it was worth it do you know. i dont author dvds any more cuz i had trouble with my sonic reel dvd so now i record straight to my dvd recorder. but would i be able to do that with the avd dvd by chance do you know.
krestofre
Knight of the Holy Order
Re: NLE...WHICH ONE?
4.6 is available on www.avid.com. Go to the Xpress Pro section and click on "Tech Notes" then you'll have the option to download the upgrade to 4.6. Truth be told though there's not much difference between 4.5 and 4.6. Just bug fixes for bugs that I never encountered and support for SP2.
Actually I haven't used the specific Sonic product that Avid DVD is based on. ReelDVD is the only Sonic product that I've used, but it was such a mess that I really don't have any desire to try other Sonic products. It's possible that with the higher priced offerings they've made some improvements, but since a friend pointed me towards DVD-lab I've never looked back.
Chris
4.6 is available on www.avid.com. Go to the Xpress Pro section and click on "Tech Notes" then you'll have the option to download the upgrade to 4.6. Truth be told though there's not much difference between 4.5 and 4.6. Just bug fixes for bugs that I never encountered and support for SP2.
Actually I haven't used the specific Sonic product that Avid DVD is based on. ReelDVD is the only Sonic product that I've used, but it was such a mess that I really don't have any desire to try other Sonic products. It's possible that with the higher priced offerings they've made some improvements, but since a friend pointed me towards DVD-lab I've never looked back.
Chris
krestofre
Knight of the Holy Order
Re: NLE...WHICH ONE?
Are you referring to the option to send video to DV device so you can preview on a monitor through a deck of a camera or something? If so then it's handled completely through the Blue dot Green dot modes. Blue dot sends video out to DV device. Green dot does not. If you have Mojo then it's automatically always sending the signal through Mojo. If that's not what you're talking about let me know and I'll see if I can take another stab and answering your question.
Chris
Are you referring to the option to send video to DV device so you can preview on a monitor through a deck of a camera or something? If so then it's handled completely through the Blue dot Green dot modes. Blue dot sends video out to DV device. Green dot does not. If you have Mojo then it's automatically always sending the signal through Mojo. If that's not what you're talking about let me know and I'll see if I can take another stab and answering your question.
Chris
bilgami
Veteran
Re: NLE...WHICH ONE?
with the 4.3 i had the blue or green dot next to the word avid on the top of timeline but i was able to activate the digital out on the special menu. but now with the 4.6 the green or blue dot is not there and im not able to activate the dv out in the special menu.
with the 4.3 i had the blue or green dot next to the word avid on the top of timeline but i was able to activate the digital out on the special menu. but now with the 4.6 the green or blue dot is not there and im not able to activate the dv out in the special menu.
krestofre
Knight of the Holy Order
Re: NLE...WHICH ONE?
Did you add Mojo? My understand has always been that Mojo removed the green dot blue dot mode from Xpress Pro because it's essentially ALL green dot with Mojo. I believe that's been the case since Xpress Pro was released. I don't think that's something that changed with 4.6, but I could be mistaken. Aside from not having that checkbox, is Xpress Pro working OK? The DV signal should be going out even though that checkbox is gone.
Chris
Did you add Mojo? My understand has always been that Mojo removed the green dot blue dot mode from Xpress Pro because it's essentially ALL green dot with Mojo. I believe that's been the case since Xpress Pro was released. I don't think that's something that changed with 4.6, but I could be mistaken. Aside from not having that checkbox, is Xpress Pro working OK? The DV signal should be going out even though that checkbox is gone.
Chris
krestofre
Knight of the Holy Order
Re: NLE...WHICH ONE?
I'm glad to hear that it's working. I'm pretty sure that the removal of that checkbox was something that was supposed to happen. The removal of the blue and green dot is because of mojo. Sometime if you're curious you can start Avid without the mojo attached and the dot will be back.
On your new error, what's the full error message? Also, how much RAM do you have? Avid has been pushing the minimum requirements of Xpress Pro up a lot recently. Both of my systems are still at 512 MB and I haven't had any problems (neither are approved systems either), but I've talked to people who had nothing but trouble until they upgraded their Ram to Avid's new requirements.
Chris
I'm glad to hear that it's working. I'm pretty sure that the removal of that checkbox was something that was supposed to happen. The removal of the blue and green dot is because of mojo. Sometime if you're curious you can start Avid without the mojo attached and the dot will be back.
On your new error, what's the full error message? Also, how much RAM do you have? Avid has been pushing the minimum requirements of Xpress Pro up a lot recently. Both of my systems are still at 512 MB and I haven't had any problems (neither are approved systems either), but I've talked to people who had nothing but trouble until they upgraded their Ram to Avid's new requirements.
Chris
Re: NLE...WHICH ONE?
Chris,
What do you know about 24P editing in Express? Any additional costs? I have been using a Turbo cube and she just died, very sad. My days of no rendering I think are gone!! So its down to FCP or Express and cost is a factor. I will need a computer for either system. What's you take.
Thanks, Ken
Chris,
What do you know about 24P editing in Express? Any additional costs? I have been using a Turbo cube and she just died, very sad. My days of no rendering I think are gone!! So its down to FCP or Express and cost is a factor. I will need a computer for either system. What's you take.
Thanks, Ken
krestofre
Knight of the Holy Order
Re: NLE...WHICH ONE?
It depends on if you want your final product on tape or on DVD or some computer-based codec.
Xpress Pro can capture 24p Advanced footage (I.E. DVX footage) in software only, and it can edit in a 24p timeline. If you want to cut to tape you need the Mojo along with Xpress Pro because Mojo is required to add the pulldown to make it 29.97 FPS again for tape. If you export footage out of Xpress Pro (in Quicktime, Windows Media, etc.) then you can keep the 24p without Mojo.
There are ways around this depending on the software that you have. For example you can export in 24p, import into AE, add pull down, export from AE, create a 29.97 project in Xpress Pro and then cut that to tape, but I would just recommend Mojo as it's definitely worth the price.
Also with Mojo you essentially have no renders. I think 3D effects are the only thing that still needs to be rendered, otherwise Mojo does it all in real time.
You can run Xpress Pro with Mojo on Mac or PC, so whichever platform you prefer. (I'd recommend PC, but that's just the kind of guy I am. ;D)
Hope that help.
Chris
It depends on if you want your final product on tape or on DVD or some computer-based codec.
Xpress Pro can capture 24p Advanced footage (I.E. DVX footage) in software only, and it can edit in a 24p timeline. If you want to cut to tape you need the Mojo along with Xpress Pro because Mojo is required to add the pulldown to make it 29.97 FPS again for tape. If you export footage out of Xpress Pro (in Quicktime, Windows Media, etc.) then you can keep the 24p without Mojo.
There are ways around this depending on the software that you have. For example you can export in 24p, import into AE, add pull down, export from AE, create a 29.97 project in Xpress Pro and then cut that to tape, but I would just recommend Mojo as it's definitely worth the price.
Also with Mojo you essentially have no renders. I think 3D effects are the only thing that still needs to be rendered, otherwise Mojo does it all in real time.
You can run Xpress Pro with Mojo on Mac or PC, so whichever platform you prefer. (I'd recommend PC, but that's just the kind of guy I am. ;D)
Hope that help.
Chris
krestofre
Knight of the Holy Order
Re: NLE...WHICH ONE?
Hello reg59. I absolutely love Combustion. It's interface is a little different from the other two big FX packages in it's class (After Effects and Boris Red) but once you learn it you start to want everything to function like Combustion does. Also, the interface for Combustion is a pretty standard interface across all Discreet products, so in that sense it's like Avid. Using Xpress Pro I can sit down at an Adrenaline and be up and running in 5 minutes. Likewise, knowing Combustion I can sit down at a Flame or Inferno and at least have a clue about using them, which I think is great.
I'm afraid that I don't have anything of mine online that I can point to. If you go to Discreet's website they have an online demo reel of what other people have done with Combustion. You can also download the program for a completely functional 30 day trial and see if you like it.
I learned Combustion by going through the online tutorial lessoms and reading the giant User's Guide once I ordered it. Not the best way, but I'm doing my compositing in Combustion currently. There are some training DVDs that have been recommended to me which will probably end up on my Christmas list.
At the end of the day, and after sampling Red, AE, and Combustion, I found Combustion to be so much more powerful than any of the competition with Red being second and AE bringing up the rear, in my opinion.
Hope that helps.
Chris
Hello reg59. I absolutely love Combustion. It's interface is a little different from the other two big FX packages in it's class (After Effects and Boris Red) but once you learn it you start to want everything to function like Combustion does. Also, the interface for Combustion is a pretty standard interface across all Discreet products, so in that sense it's like Avid. Using Xpress Pro I can sit down at an Adrenaline and be up and running in 5 minutes. Likewise, knowing Combustion I can sit down at a Flame or Inferno and at least have a clue about using them, which I think is great.
I'm afraid that I don't have anything of mine online that I can point to. If you go to Discreet's website they have an online demo reel of what other people have done with Combustion. You can also download the program for a completely functional 30 day trial and see if you like it.
I learned Combustion by going through the online tutorial lessoms and reading the giant User's Guide once I ordered it. Not the best way, but I'm doing my compositing in Combustion currently. There are some training DVDs that have been recommended to me which will probably end up on my Christmas list.
At the end of the day, and after sampling Red, AE, and Combustion, I found Combustion to be so much more powerful than any of the competition with Red being second and AE bringing up the rear, in my opinion.
Hope that helps.
Chris