NLE Ratings for editing MXF

NorthernFilmMaker

NorthernFilmMaker

Active member
I think this will help alot of us new P2 Camera users decide on a good NLE... Can those who have experience editing MXF files with different NLE's rate them according to each of the below categories:

1. Speed (which NLE is fastest)
2. Stability
3. Which NLE edits the largest variety of formats
4. Which NLE is the best standalone software
5. Best Encoding (output SD/HD)
6. Most support from 3rd party software
7. Best User friendly interface
8. Best Features
9. Best Hardware integration
10. Best bang for buck
 
I can't rate 'em all in all those categories, but I've used most of 'em and as far as integration with P2/MXF I'd rank 'em like this:

#1 EDIUS Broadcast
#2 Premiere Pro CS3 (nudges out SpeedEdit because of After Effects MXF integration)
#3 NewTek SpeedEdit
#4 Avid Liquid and Avid XPress
#5 FCP with Raylight or HDLog, or Vegas with Raylight
#6 FCP without either Raylight or HD Log

Note: this is not rating the editors *as editors*, this is rating how they integrate with P2/MXF. I left off Vegas without Raylight because it has no integration at all; it requires Raylight before it can even see a P2 file.

Now, taking into account the top 4 with native support, I'll offer some opinions and then others will hopefully offer theirs.

1. SpeedEdit is the fastest and EDIUS is right up there with it.
2. EDIUS is extraordinarily stable
3. EDIUS can take absolutely anything you can throw at it, and does so in the native codecs, and always has support for the native codecs faster than anyone. Vegas used to be right up there, but recently they've been falling down there. FCP takes the fewest native formats, they require you to convert files to Quicktime.
4. Standalone meaning not as part of a suite? Vegas.
5. EDIUS started as primarily a codec company and their ProCoder produces gorgeous results.
6. Probably CS3 and FCP. Not sure, but definitely not EDIUS, SpeedEdit or Vegas!
7. Vegas.
8. How can you answer that? Best features within the NLE itself? Or in the whole package? A good case could be made for Vegas in that it offers 3-D and 2-D compositing and the best audio editing features, but if you're looking at the total package then obviously CS3 and FCS2 have way more, combined, than any plain NLE. Just the presence of After Effects and PhotoShop would put CS3 in first place on my list.
9. Hardware integration... hmmm. Again, a semantic question. One could argue that FCP has the best integration because the software is made by the hardware company. Or you could argue CS3 because boards like the Intensity Pro and the Matrox Axio are made specifically to work with Premiere Pro. Or you could argue that EDIUS is, because Canopus themselves makes hardware boards to integrate with it. Or you could argue Vegas specifically because it's designed to be hardware-independent, thus running on *any* hardware!
10. Again, very tough to answer. Considering all you get in the suites, it'd be easy to argue CS3 and FCS2. But those are $1300 and $1700. Premiere Pro CS3 by itself is $800, and EDIUS Broadcast is $1000, and Liquid is $850, so they're all in the same ballpark. Vegas looks like a bargain at $550, but you *have* to have Raylight so that brings it to $750. SpeedEdit is the bargain at $480.
 
Wow, yes, what a perfect expose we have here ! So for a say Mac user shooting DVCProHD on P2 and firestore, Premiere Pro CS3 would be the recommendation, right ? I mean even though converting files to Quicktime is not that big of deal, since they (may) come already converted out of the firestore.

But could anyone tell us which system(s), regardless the operating system, would accept both 720 and 1080 files in the same project ? say to mix VFR shots with a lot less compressed ones... only possible on Edius ? Please tell : )
 
Well, the choice of editor should be based on many factors, not the least of which is: which one do you like the best? If, for example, you LOVE the way FCP works and you HATE the way EDIUS works, would it really matter to you that EDIUS has better P2 integration, if you hated working with it?

Also, your career goals would matter highly too. Fact of the matter is that FCP and/or Avid are installed in just about every major post house out there, so learning SpeedEdit may make you a fast, efficient editor, but it may not do a thing for you as far as getting a job. Whereas FCP may be the weakest integration of P2 support, but every post house has an FCP suite.

That's why it's so tough to advise someone as to which one is "right" for them. I can empirically say which ones integrate better with P2, that's easy. But as to which one is overall the right choice for any particular person, that's a whole lot harder!

Shooting to the FS-100 does overcome a lot of FCP's non-native MXF support because you can just always put the FS-100 in Quicktime mode, for example. Eliminating the whole "log & transfer" step, and greatly overcoming that limitation. But that only works for the FS-100, not for P2 cards, so -- again, your mileage may vary.

EDIUS and Vegas have no trouble mixing and matching anything in the world that you want to throw at them, whether 720 and 1080, HDV and DVCPRO-HD and AVC-HD, 30P or 24P or 60i or 60P or 48P or 12P or 2P, 4:3 or 16:9, SD or HD, AVI or MOV or animated GIF or Flash SWF file, it doesn't matter. That's the way all editors should be, IMO. I don't know how well the other editors deal with that; their users will have to come on and tell us.
 
What a fantastic point of view and feedback. I can only hope some FCP users will come to this round table with their own impression. But after all, maybe no one using P2 technology in using FCP, because of compatibility issues. And in my opinion as well, all editing software should be flexible and behave as EDIUS does. Now, frankly, i'm near sold on the PC idea... as even though my job should remain behind the camera, i most likely won't be able to afford an editor, and that's the reason why i need to pick the right tool to cut my feature doc - not to get a job - so please FCP users fire away with insights, lights and tips !
 
maybe no one using P2 technology in using FCP, because of compatibility issues.
Click to expand...
Far from it -- most P2 users are using FCP, and near as I can tell the vast majority of HVX users are using FCP. There are problems and there are issues, but it seems like for the most part people are passionate enough about MacOS and about Apple in general and FCP in particular, that they're happy with the overall workflow. I also think that there are lots of FCP users who just plain don't know how the integration "could" be, so they don't mind the Log & Transfer step, etc. And then there are many FCP users who are using Raylight, which gives pretty good FCP/P2 integration.
 
I wont add much to this except NLE choice is a personal preference and workflow needs based.

I have dual platforms: and also I have CS3 and FCP Suite on a MacPro

I have a preference for Premiere and I have a preference for PCs over Macs.

My "needs" require both platforms because I have other "artists" who are more comfortable in a Mac (and a FCP) environment .

Because of "my preference" I am Bootcamping my Mac and will run a Windows version of CS3 on it as well.

I use parts of all the apps so this gives me massive flexibilty and capabilty.

It would be impossible for me to answer all your questions as well as Barry has done .

Worth adding : My work is TV commercials. Many shot P2. (720pn usually).
P2 rocks and is totally effortless on Premiere. Slightly less easy on FCP but I do not use Raylight in that app. (FCP converts mxf to mov by itself anyway)
 
I hate FCP's log and transfer /quicktime re-wrap of the mxf files. such a waste of time (and money). i shot a feature with over a terabyte of footage and if we hadn't had someone ingesting footage at night as we shot, it would have taken days to get it all loaded and organized. and the lack of metadata support is lame. still, I'm only working with P2 media for personal projects like Heart of Now, so I stick with FCP and Avid because cutting with them is like second nature for me. i rarely even look at the keyboard because I "know" where the keys are. don't even think about it. hell, in avid i don't even use the source/record monitors, i keep them collapsed... a timeline and an external client monitor is all i need.... what was this post about?
 
I agree with your comments 100% Barry Green. I am a long time user of Edius but like you stated the CS3 suite is hard to beat. Edius is fast but I like the the GUI of the CS3 products. I can only image CS3 will win over some FCP users. Premiere Pro is not that great but then again it is not bad either. The sum of CS3 is much greater than the seperate parts.
 
This is great info guys... Here's my situation, I have been editing on Adobe Video Collections Pro.... that includes: PPro 1.5 (no MXF support), After effects 6.5 pro, Encore 1.5, Photoshop CS2, Audition.... I just got the HPX500, so now i need a new editor. I have a couple of options that i'm just kind of stuck on, here they are:
1. Upgrade Adobe Collections to Adobe CS3 for roughly $800
2. Buy Edius Broadcast $900

I know that CS3 will give me much more for my money and I'm familiar with using the program.... on the other hand I can have the reliability and flexibility of Edius Broadcast and integrate it with After effects, Encore etc ??.... And, this is my other dilemma.... I understand that CS3 will require a mean computer to ensure optimal performance (no crashing etc..)...well, I just don't have that computer yet. My computer is an old P4 2.8Ghz HT, 2 G ram... and it struggles sometime with cutting regular DV. So, what do i do? Is Edius a good enough program? or should i go for CS3 with all the extra?

Oh yeah, I'm not too worried about what the rest of the industry is using, I do my own business so, i use whatever program best fits the bill !
 
Edius has geat realtime horse power but it is limited. I downloaded the Edius 4.5 trial version. You still can not use two keying filters at once. The PIP crop works the same and you can not add transitions to the titles (a few you can). The Edius GUI is still not as refined as the CS3 suite. I have decided I will get the CS3 package after NAB unless Canopus has Edius 5 ready. Edius is very vey fast but it also has many limitations and a funky GUI. I will say Edius would be my second choice after the CS3 package.
 
I forgot to mention. Edius can edit a PIP with filters in realtime with a mere 2.8 GHZ P4. I know Premiere Pro stinks when using a mere 2.8 GHZ P4. Try using a 2.6 GHZ Core 2 Dual with DV-25 and it will be like night and day. I was using Edius until I built my Core 2 Dual system about a year ago. Now I use Premiere Pro.
 
What about Edius vs Vegas/Raylight? I was doing a bit of reading on how well Vegas & Raylight work with MXF. Any thoughts on that as an option for editing? Which would be a better choice between these two?
 
The GUI of Vegas Pro is funky in my opinion. Edius would be true realtime not just a preview like Vegas. I sold my Vegas program about 6 months ago. I think PP CS3 and Edius are both real good but you may like Vegas better. Test out the trial versions before you buy. I actually get more RT preview performance with Premiere Pro than with Vegas and I like the GUI bettter. Edius of course has tons of realtime but limited FX.
 
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Vegas is a fabulous editor, and Raylight does give it MXF capability. But EDIUS has true native MXF support which includes metadata, user clip name, exporting straight back to P2 right from the timeline, all metadata at all times within the edit, loading metadata into clips from a text file, the P2 importer, etc. I love what Marcus has done for Vegas, but there's only so far he could take it, whereas the EDIUS guys did it as right as it can be done.
 
Does Premiere Pro CS3 allow you to edit multiple frame rates, 1080i/p, 720p/n, 480i/p all on the same timeline, like Edius and Vegas? if so, how does it handle that?
 
I'm no expert on it yet, but I just threw HDV 720p/50, HDV 720/24, DV 480/24, and DVCPRO-HD 1080/60i on the same timeline and it didn't blink. Only thing was that it didn't automatically stretch the footage to fill the frame size, I had to select a checkbox to have it do that.
 
Hey, good news on the Premiere CS3 multi rec format compatibility on the same timeline ! Would by chance Final Cut behave likewise, anyone ? And what about Final Cut Express... say for someone who'd like to learn video editing by him or herself without getting overwhelmed. Does it work like the Pro HD version when loading it with P2 and already converted files ? That would be rad...
 
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