NLE Ratings for editing MXF

With NAB 2008 right around the corner, would it be wise to invest in an editor now? Has anyone heard any news on any upgrades from Apple? Adobe? Sony? Grass Valley? I remember when i bought my Video Collections Pro....a month or two later Adobe upgraded to CS2.... I was a bit steamed :Drogar-Mad(DBG): anyways, it would be good to know what these guys have up their sleeves for NAB.
 
Grass Valley just updated EDIUS to version 4.6 within the last week, and they've also fairly recently introduced EDIUS Neo, a low-cost version (but not for P2/MXF). Adobe had a fairly recent upgrade a few months ago to incorporate P2. Vegas upgraded to Vegas 8 Pro not long ago.
 
NorthernFilmMaker said:
With NAB 2008 right around the corner, would it be wise to invest in an editor now? Has anyone heard any news on any upgrades from Apple? Adobe? Sony? Grass Valley? I remember when i bought my Video Collections Pro....a month or two later Adobe upgraded to CS2.... I was a bit steamed :Drogar-Mad(DBG): anyways, it would be good to know what these guys have up their sleeves for NAB.
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I think you should know what you want to do, and the shooting equipment you have. Many NLE's have strong strengths and weaknesses.
people editing films have different aesthetic toolset requirements, formost of which is logging and media managent. As hard drive space is getting cheaper, its getting harder to manage media, because a feature length doc or film can be about 50 hours of footage, thats terabytes of storage. You will have to sit through and find the best footage to log and tranfer and pre -edit using the NLE's viewer, this is where like AVIDs, final cut pro shines. I imagine EdIUs broadcast will have similar features. For short form industrial or music video style edits, all NLE's IMO seem pretty good. Every film edit facility that has four or more editors working on a project need log and transfer software with some scripting XML or phython support for final conforms, it only makes sense. I love PPRO CS3 it implements its own rules in this Area with Adobe bridge running on a network all media is instantly accesible, BUT, i SAY BUT, PPro cs3 does not have multi editor server facilities as FCP does, and contrary to popular opinion using Qmaster it is multi processer freindly in a very intuitive way.
As a home user I use Adobes suite. It makes sense to me. Remember I am on this forum to learn, I am no professional editor so I only need what really works for my P2 workflow. this is how you should approach it. waiting for NAB could be a good thing, but remember Adobe releases products randomly usually by user request. And all the NLE's have such huge user bases all over the web with youtube and flash video , they dont need to be in las vegas to show thier products.

this is a good topic though, I hope you pick what best works for you and not the most popular software out there
 
Thanks for the comments, I have made my decision on which NLE works best for me... and I owe making an informed decision to all of you great people who share your wealth of knowledge.... thanks, you guys make it alot easier for us to make these decisions which involve spending our hard earned money on the right products. Very much appreciated :)
 
Indeed, only one word: Bravo ! And thanks to all of you, knowledgeable people, for sharing. So many good points were made. This discussion should remain a real source of info for those undecided and the months to come. Editing your own stuff is so cool. Can't wait to become an expert and help out !
 
Like I said the best thing to do is to use the 30 day trial version of Vegas, Edius, Premiere Pro etc. Edius is very fast and 100% realtime and I admit Vegas can do some cool effects but if you find the GUI awkward and a bit funky what good are these features? I imagine most of your work will be simple cuts, simple fades (transitions) a few titles and some color correction. All the programs can do that but Edius, Vegas and FCP do not have integration with AE, Photshop, Encore (DVDs) and Audition like PP CS3. I imagine we have all had a client give us a Photoshop PSD file. With PP SC3 you do not need to export as a TIFF or bit map. Adobe gives you a full blown multimedia solution as opposed to Edius and Vegas just being good editing programs.
 
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Vegas and EDIUS don't have direct integration with AE. You have to render a file out, then import that file, etc. But Vegas (and I think EDIUS) can directly read photoshop PSD documents. And Vegas 8 Pro includes its own fantastic DVD application, DVD Architect 4.5. EDIUS has the ability to render out a DVD-compliant file right from the timeline, I think -- haven't tried that.

Vegas is not part of a "suite" but is practically a suite all in and of itself. It has no need for a separate audio app because its audio features are far more robust than any other NLE's, and probably rival external apps. It doesn't need a separate compositing app because you can do 2D and even 3-D compositing right on the timeline. (obviously not to AE standards, but still you can do quite a bit). The only external app it really requires is a DVD application, and it includes one.

Now, that's not to say Vegas is perfect; the Sony ownership has, in my opinion, really been a bad thing for Vegas, it's made them intentionally and perhaps unintentionally incompatible with other manufacturers. They purposefully didn't support MXF from any Panasonic P2 product; they intentionally implemented AVC-HD with no support for Canon or Panasonic products, only Sony cams were supported (I think this has now been rectified) and they managed to "break" their XHA1 support -- it used to work under Vegas 6 & 7, but now in 8 it doesn't work properly. I would heartily recommend Vegas to someone who intends to only use Sony camcorders, but if you expect to use products from other manufacturers I'd say you'd better be very careful.

I have no such qualms when recommending EDIUS, EDIUS seems to support anything and everything, faster and better than anyone else does.
 
I cconsider the DVD creation as part of the editing process since most of us create or own DVDs. That is why I considered Vegas and Edius editors only as opposed to the CS3 master suite. Premere Pro, AE, FLash, Indesign, photoshop and DreamWeaver make for a true multimedia solution over Vegas and Edius (video editors in my opinion). Edius can do DVD authoring form the timeline but it is week compared to Encore. I think it is great that Edius can do this.

I know Vegas can import PSD files but if you go back and edit in Photoshop do the edits update on the timeline in Vegas like in PP CS3?
 
medeamajic said:
That is why I considered Vegas and Edius editors only as opposed to the CS3 master suite.
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Again, Vegas *includes* a DVD authoring program in the Vegas 8 Pro edition. And EDIUS has authoring of DVDs from the timeline, IINM.

I know Vegas can import PSD files but if you go back and edit in Photoshop do the edits update on the timeline in Vegas like in PP CS3?
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I don't know. I do know that CS3 has the tightest, coolest integration across programs, certainly better than anything else does.
 
Yes, the PSD files (and anything else you edit outside of Vegas, for that matter) will update on the timeline as soon as you finish saving in Photoshop.

BTW, DVD Architect has been available for the Vegas + DVD set for longer than Encore has been around, let alone the Creative Suite.
 
Barry_Green said:
Again, Vegas *includes* a DVD authoring program in the Vegas 8 Pro edition. And EDIUS has authoring of DVDs from the timeline, IINM.

.
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Most DVD authoring programs can be used to edit the video clips but it would not be wise. Liquid and Edius can do authoring from the timeline. To me DVD authoring is part of the editing process. That is why I consider Vegas and Edius editors. I admit it is a different kind of editing process and may require another program but you would not use DVD Architect to design a website or a news paper add. Now if Vegas had something like DreamWeaver, Indesign or even Photoshop then I would consider it a multimedia solutions.
 
i used vegas once a longtime ago when it was audio, only I think it was on a petium 2 with 256 mb Ram, it performed flawlessly chasing time code from an svhs video deck. back then the only pro audio for video apps were protools, and ensoniq paris. Vegas was great unlimited tracks, pencil tool, built in effects, cheap etc etc. I find that today they still keep a lot of that versatility in the app, making it many thindgs at once. I guess in the new multimedia era an Editor has to perform many additional tasks so it works well for single users. for facillities that require many professionals having a suite with seperate apps allows you to send projects from an edit machine to a colorist, sound or effects person and back with out degrading the image in any way. I guess its good to have many skills and talent but its great to be able to do one thing very very well.
In the adobe CS3 suite every app except for soundbooth does its job extremely well.
 
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medeamajic said:
Most DVD authoring programs can be used to edit the video clips but it would not be wise. Liquid and Edius can do authoring from the timeline. To me DVD authoring is part of the editing process. That is why I consider Vegas and Edius editors. I admit it is a different kind of editing process and may require another program but you would not use DVD Architect to design a website or a news paper add. .
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But you wouldn't use Adobe Encore to design a website or newspaper ad either! I really don't follow what you're saying. What does that have to do with the topic, which was NLEs for MXF editing?

So, I'll try again: Vegas and EDIUS are not full "suites" by any stretch of the imagination. They don't include applications like InDesign or DreamWeaver. They do, however, include just about all the functionality you need to edit video and output a final mastered DVD. And they cost a lot less than the "suites" do. And they do have the ability to work with PhotoShop documents, etc. They do not integrate inherently with After Effects.

The thread here was about NLEs. I don't see where DreamWeaver or InDesign enter into that equation. My only point here was that Vegas is not part of a "suite" but it does (in and of itself) much more than most other NLEs do by themselves. Or, put another way, other NLEs *require* a full suite because they don't have the compositing and audio capabilities that Vegas has.

Now, with that said, Vegas is at about the bottom of the list for MXF editors. I'm not trying to say it's better than CS3 for working with MXF -- heavens no! But I am trying to give it its due.
 
danny damah said:
i used vegas once a longtime ago when it was audio, only I think it was on a petium 2 with 256 mb Ram, it performed flawlessly chasing time code from an svhs video deck. back then the only pro audio for video apps were protools, and ensoniq paris. Vegas was great unlimited tracks, pencil tool, built in effects, cheap etc etc. I find that today they still keep a lot of that versatility in the app, making it many thindgs at once. I guess in the new multimedia era an Editor has to perform many additional tasks so it works well for single users. for facillities that require many professionals having a suite with seperate apps allows you to send projects from an edit machine to a colorist, sound or effects person and back with out degrading the image in any way. I guess its good to have many skills and talent but its great to be able to do one thing very very well.
In the adobe CS3 suite every app except for soundbooth does its job extremely well.
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As of now I have Premiere Pro 1.0 and it integrates with Audition 2.0 great. Cool Edit Pro/Audition has been around for over ten years. I started audio editing with Cool Edit Pro 1.0 back in 97. I consider it much better than any of the Sonic Foundary products for audio editing but It is all personal choice.
 
Barry_Green said:
But you wouldn't use Adobe Encore to design a website or newspaper ad either! I really don't follow what you're saying. What does that have to do with the topic, which was NLEs for MXF editing?

So, I'll try again: Vegas and EDIUS are not full "suites" by any stretch of the imagination. They don't include applications like InDesign or DreamWeaver. They do, however, include just about all the functionality you need to edit video and output a final mastered DVD. And they cost a lot less than the "suites" do. And they do have the ability to work with PhotoShop documents, etc. They do not integrate inherently with After Effects.

The thread here was about NLEs. I don't see where DreamWeaver or InDesign enter into that equation. My only point here was that Vegas is not part of a "suite" but it does (in and of itself) much more than most other NLEs do by themselves. Or, put another way, other NLEs *require* a full suite because they don't have the compositing and audio capabilities that Vegas has.

Now, with that said, Vegas is at about the bottom of the list for MXF editors. I'm not trying to say it's better than CS3 for working with MXF -- heavens no! But I am trying to give it its due.
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Calm down my friend. I stated Edius is very fast and Vegas can do a lot. There is no argument about that but It is all personal choice. I want to get into webdesing and do more printing production. For some the integration of Flash with AE and AE with photoShop makes for a true multimedia solution. I am not disssing Edius or Vegas but they only produce video content. When comparing NLE system one has to decide if they need integration with web design and printing programs. My needs are different than yours and many others will have different needs than you or I. Vegas and Edius are good programs but I have decided after NAB 2008 what to do myself. I will more than likely get the CS3 Master Collection rather than upgrade my Edius 3.5.

I admit as a video editor Edius and Vegas might be the better choice for some users but even some Final Cut Studio users are jumping ship to the CS3 package. You have to look at the big picture. I admit the CS3 package might not be right for you but I think my comments are valid. I guess we should just agree to disagree.

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/977306
 
The more I read different forums it seems to me most posters are really intrested in a camera or software that can do everything including bake cakes and turn lead to gold. And I am not joking.

I think its a really important you identify your needs and not get sold on features that are targeted towards other users.

like Barry said, this was clearly a topic where the poster had a very important question to make a decision based on valid questions about editing the mxf format
 
Barry, now how are you going to go and answer all the PPro questions? what the heck am i supposed to do now? :)

on a side point though its not going to be a huge suprise to see encore be able to import .mxfs naitively eventually to burn them straight to blue ray, which will make PPRO cs3 even a little nicer from a "total package" or workflow standpoint. ADobe hasnt announced it yet, but it has been implied that the entire video suite will be able to work with P2 naitive eventually. hopefully that implication is more than ..well ..an implication.

on another side note what doesnt get discussed too often is the fact that P2 has actually been taken seriously and has been accepted pretty much industry wide as a professional format that needs addressing and workflow options. when it was first introduced there was alot of things yet up in the air. and now we have the privilage of discussing which NLE is the best for it. which is a big milestone if we really consider it. hopefully we see the same sort of support for redcode and other future advances as they get their legs underneath them and open new doors for all of us independents.
 
medeamajic said:
As of now I have Premiere Pro 1.0 and it integrates with Audition 2.0 great. Cool Edit Pro/Audition has been around for over ten years. I started audio editing with Cool Edit Pro 1.0 back in 97. I consider it much better than any of the Sonic Foundary products for audio editing but It is all personal choice.
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that argument is off topic, and I was not arguing with you, I was mainly pointing out that vegas is becoming a swiss army knife for audiovisual media.
but if you need to know
like I said professional audiovisual suites, which means hardware software integrated suites. ProtooLs formely soundtools have been around for close to 25 yrs. Cooledit pro was introduced as an Audio editor/ nitch tool mainly for DJs and Radio stations, it really is still that way, Audition is mainly used by reporters and radio stations, its strength is the broadcast wave format. even music studios dont record on Audition, it is windows only and does not integrate with outbaord analog hardware very well, compared to , protools, logic, sonar, cubase etc.

I like audition it complements the Adobe suite very, infact along with digital performer on the apple side I use Audition for most of my windows audio clean up and mixing.
 
Neil Rowe said:
Barry, now how are you going to go and answer all the PPro questions? what the heck am i supposed to do now? :)

on a side point though its not going to be a huge suprise to see encore be able to import .mxfs naitively eventually to burn them straight to blue ray, which will make PPRO cs3 even a little nicer from a "total package" or workflow standpoint. ADobe hasnt announced it yet, but it has been implied that the entire video suite will be able to work with P2 naitive eventually. hopefully that implication is more than ..well ..an implication.

on another side note what doesnt get discussed too often is the fact that P2 has actually been taken seriously and has been accepted pretty much industry wide as a professional format that needs addressing and workflow options. when it was first introduced there was alot of things yet up in the air. and now we have the privilage of discussing which NLE is the best for it. which is a big milestone if we really consider it. hopefully we see the same sort of support for redcode and other future advances as they get their legs underneath them and open new doors for all of us independents.
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yeah i cant wait for the scarlett anouncement, that will really jump start the redcode adoption. It only makes sense, it seems to be the smartest codec alonside the dpx and cineform stuff. I cant wait
 
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