Thomas Smet
Veteran
Would rather have FF for stills and sacrifice the 4k video autofocus since I plan on shooting stills with the camera 95% of the time. I have a P4k to shoot 4k video in raw.
Nikon Z9 with 8k Posted on B&H
- Thread starter Ken1212
- Start date
Would rather have FF for stills and sacrifice the 4k video autofocus since I plan on shooting stills with the camera 95% of the time. I have a P4k to shoot 4k video in raw.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
I actually ended up doing exactly that. I got a Canon M6 mark2 and absolutely love it. There were a few carefully calculated reasons.
1. The adapters work 100% with EF and EF-s lenses much like the RF mount adapters. This was important since I'm now buying EF and EF-S lenses to use with the P4k and Metabones. I want a body where I know the lenses support 100% of the electronic controls and features.
2. 32 MP APS-C sensor vs my GH4 which was m43 and 16 MP. Thats a massive bump up for me for stills. The Canon RP was only 24 MP. Not that it would make a massive difference but it was a factor. I tend to now shoot stills very much at higher ISO levels.
3. EF-M can use a Metabones focal reducer for FF lenses. This means I can shoot APS-C stills with APS-C or FF glass at 32 MP or add an adapter and shoot FF glass at 32 MP at very close to FF FOV. This allows me to essentially have a 32MP APS-C camera and a 32MP FF camera in the same body. A FF camera would have to crop for a longer reach meaning much lower resolution stills.
4. As nice as FF is I do like to shoot telephoto for nature and architectural features. That gets very expensive and heavy. APS-C is a much better balance to get a little extra reach and still provide very good quality. Like mentioned in item #3 FF can crop images or shoot with EFS-S lenses in a forced crop but they are like 10MP stills. The M6 combined with a Metabones provides APS-C or FF at 32 MP. So I can choose the best of both worlds this way.
5. The M6 shoots 4k video with dual pixel auto focus. I'm not really a fan of auto focus at all but I also have a 3.5 year old daughter that started soccer and is very busy running and bouncing all over the house. My eyes are not what they once were for tracking a tornado so I figured it might be nice to have it if it in fact does actually work well.
6. The M6 4k video uses the full sensor. Kind of a rare concept for Canon. My understanding is that they line skip the 6960 sensor for 3480 that is then upscaled to 3840 resulting in slightly softer but clean 4k video. I actually like this approach so far and since I shoot with the sharpness turned off anyway I actually find it kind of pleasing vs the razor sharp details we get in cameras today. As Crystal clear as the Fuji and GH5 are I also am in the camp that sometimes those cameras are too sharp. Combined with the right lenses it still looks much better than HD and more importantly its clean and free of weird artifacts. Even the P4k can sometimes have a bit of moire due to a lack of OLPF.
7. I have no problem with APS-C/s35mm for video. The p4k with the Metabones is roughly the same so it all works well together. Plus both the RP and R crop for 4k video anyway. This way I get to use the same EF, and EF-S lenses for both stills and video on all my cameras with no compromise or FOV difference between stills and video. Plus like mentioned in #3 I can use a Metabones which gains me a stop of sensitivity. Now my gorgeous Tamron G2 70-200 f2.8 is a f2.0. I kind of prefer that vs a FF camera that pushes the ISO one stop more. This of course only works for FF lenses and thats fine. Its just a nice option if I ever want it.
8. Like I mentioned earlier using EF and EF-S glass allows me to also use it on the P4k with some electronic control like stabilization. Thats a huge advantage for me right now over Nikon, Fuji or Sony mirrorless mount lenses. Even if I upgrade to the P6k or P6k Pro I'm still covered.
9. Cost was a factor as well. The M6 was only $850 and packs one hell of a punch for me for only $850. The RP would have added a stop extra low light and DOF control but everything else would have been a negative. Both of those I can gain back with the Metabones.
10. Native EF-M glass is very affordable and actually really good. Bought a Sigma 30mm f1.4 for $260 which is insane. Thats 1/2 the cost of my favorite m43 lens the Leica 25mm f1.4 and from what I can tell just as good. While I can't use it on the P4k it was cheap enough to get it for a nice walk around lens in the dark. I may get the other two Sigma lenses depending on how much I'm ok just having lenses that work with this camera. I'm already covered with zooms with the two Tamron lenses for EF. I also still have my m43 primes for the P4k.
I really enjoy the camera so far. I wish Nikon could be an option for me but the lens mount just killed it for me. I was very close to going the Fuji route but I was concerned my new EF lenses may not perform as well with an adapter. Fuji has some amazing cameras out there and if I was starting from zero I would have likely gone that route.
So yeah the guy that said he wouldn't buy another Canon camera after my solid XL1 workhouse did exactly that and switched back to Canon.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Nice. I owned the M6 Mark II for a few months and shot a lot of short interviews/soundbites with it (via the awesome 32mm). Great little camera, but beware (and I don't think it will matter for your purposes) that it will eventually overheat with continuous 4K recording. It also has pretty decent digital IS in the menu if interested.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
I was concerned about that but its really only going to occasionally shoot video so its not a big deal. If I ever need to use it as a second camera for something it might be a concern but in that case I might prefer to rent another P4k.
Not a big fan on digital IS. I'm looking into a Weeblil S gimbal that will work with both the M6 and P4k. I'm not even a fan of IBIS and consider it close but not perfect. would hav been happy to have it in the Fuji but I think a gimbal is the better way t ego anyway. Honestly the IBIS would have mostly been for family stuff but the Weebill S is fairly compact and lightweight and will last a whole day.
I may check out the digital IS if its just a quick family shot but my two Tamron f2.8 zooms are stabilized and as long as I don't walk while shooting they work really well. I would hate to hit the resolution on that camera even more when shooting video. Plus since I was used to using the GH4 for everything I always traveled with at least a monopod and am used to having to keep shots sturdy and knew what the limitations of lens stabilization were. If I don't get a gimbal I will likely just continue to shoot carefully.
I will add getting the Gimbal will still make this camera cost less than a Canon R or a Fuji higher end model. Maybe a little more hassle to setup but likely worth it. I could potentially get an even more compact gimbal just for the M6 but if I'm going to buy one I might as well get one that can work with the P4k as well which really needs one.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Although I do live in AZ so I am a bit concerned the camera will overheat a lot on me if I do try to shoot video.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Unlike the R5 which originally appeared to be controlled by firmware, this one never overheated for me when randomly grabbing 4K b-roll at events for multiple hours.
It was the 30-40-50 minute continuous recording (of interviews) that did it.
In other words, it behaved more like real overheating vs. overheating created by programming [allegedly].
It was the 30-40-50 minute continuous recording (of interviews) that did it.
In other words, it behaved more like real overheating vs. overheating created by programming [allegedly].
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Something I will for sure keep an eye on. Thanks for the heads up. Just ordered a Weebill S gimbal so my IBIS problem is solved for both cameras.
This may apply to Z9. Or not.
Sony's running a major promotion on A7RIII ($2,300 with accessories) and A7RIV ($3,000 with accessories). Prices on A7III remain fairly stable at $2,000 w/. Which looks that the photo-centric high MPX models from all the major manufacturrs will be the first to arrive. The photo-video hybrids in the $2,500 then will have to wait a little longer. Z9, R1 and A7RV are rumored to be out in the wild already.
Or not.
Sony's running a major promotion on A7RIII ($2,300 with accessories) and A7RIV ($3,000 with accessories). Prices on A7III remain fairly stable at $2,000 w/. Which looks that the photo-centric high MPX models from all the major manufacturrs will be the first to arrive. The photo-video hybrids in the $2,500 then will have to wait a little longer. Z9, R1 and A7RV are rumored to be out in the wild already.
Or not.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Canon R3 image is leaked. No specs given, but the body looks like a 1D series, so specs would have to be close to A1. This would make sense in terms of the upcoming releases, if one combined it with the A7RIII and RIV discounts. Canon will first do a high end sports camera, Sony a high end photo. Nikon should then have something in the same A1 class. Or it could do halfsies.
Or not.
Or not.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
I could add a few moreCanon has made an official announcement of the R3 ... development. Very much in the Z9 marketing mold.
Some interesting things, however - it will be in between R5 and 1DXIII, which makes it a ~ $5,200 unit; and it will have an Eye AF. Not the subject's eye but the shooter's eye. It'll be interesting to see if they can pull it off.
They also said it's a "good match" with the announced RF telephoto primes. Which means it'll be a sports/action rather than a portrait/studio/landscape camera.
And that means the door is open for A7RV.
Some interesting things, however - it will be in between R5 and 1DXIII, which makes it a ~ $5,200 unit; and it will have an Eye AF. Not the subject's eye but the shooter's eye. It'll be interesting to see if they can pull it off.
They also said it's a "good match" with the announced RF telephoto primes. Which means it'll be a sports/action rather than a portrait/studio/landscape camera.
And that means the door is open for A7RV.
Samuel Dilworth
Well-known member
How similar remains to be seen. I suspect not very. This would be Canon’s first stacked CMOS sensor, presumably manufactured on the antique fabs Canon can’t afford to get rid of. What scope does that allow for small features? Perhaps not much. The lack of 8K video in this announcement may give us a clue. This camera might continue the tradition of a fast low-res camera, leaving the high res to another camera. Plus, a vacant R1 slot while they figure out how to combine high res and high speed as Sony does with the α1 and Nikon will do with the Z9.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
The difference between the canon and the nikon. Canon make a body with an ND filter and XLR. Nikon dont. So for doing video you are better spending you lens money with Canon.
Reading the tea leaves, it'll be in the 40-45 MPX range without the 8K but with sufficient frame rates at the higher res. They can't really go low-res anymore in the $5,000 price point after Sony came out with A1. That would be an admission of inferiority. R5 does 12 fps at a full 45 MPX readout, so I'd expect this to be slightly higher. The Olympics open in late July. R3 should be targeted at that date.
NorBro
Major Contributor
I don't follow all of the gimbal models and their various generations these days, but hopefully it wasn't this one that you just bought (unless it was used).
$130 savings for another 11 hours...
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1511032-REG/zhiyun_tech_weebill_s_handheld_stabilizer.html
Samuel Dilworth
Well-known member
You’re better informed than I am about rumours and such. However, I see no reason it wouldn’t have 8K video if it had the pixel count to do it (about 40 megapixels with a 3:2 aspect ratio sensor). This stacked sensor will be way faster than the R5, and the R5 already does 8K.
And if it will do 8K, Canon would surely have said so in this announcement (as Nikon did for the Z9).
Moreover, what room is there for an R1 if this R3 is both fast and high-res?
All of these things, plus Canon’s probable difficulty implementing stacked CMOS on old fab tech, make me think it will have a lower pixel count than 40 million. I’m just guessing, though.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Oh that’s hilarious. Missed the sale by two days. Oh well I paid $339 so only a $70 difference. That would have paid for most of the $79 add on follow focus however. Oh well. That’s the really of this game we play.
That's right. No 8K or they would have said something about it.
This leaves a possibility that it would be in the high 20's to low 30's MPX as a stills camera - more than D1 X MKIII but fewer than R5 - with a crippled video with regards to codec or crop. But then it won't be a spec busting camera and then Canon won't be able to get premium prices for it, thereby dropping it under R5 and above R6. Which doesn't seem likely because the model number R3 implies it being over R5 and under R1 and priced at ~ $5,000.
Once again, speculating - the sensor will probably be in the 7800x5200 area, around 40 MPX, but specifically designed not to do 8K. Then it ought to be able to do around 20 fps with the electronic shutter. And, if one adds an oversampled 4K, its video features should be quite nice too.
If 40 MPX is a reasonable ballpark figure, it'll double the resolution of a sports/action/BiF 1D X MKIII but won't come close to the expected 80-100 MPX of R1. If R1 comes in at about $6,500, it'll be their top of the line model. However, then it'll be priced higher than the medium format Fuji GFX100s (with 102 MPX). But, there's a new Sony medium format sensor with 128 MPX too.
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/09/sony-has-developed-a-128mp-global-shutter-medium-format-sensor/
My bet is that both Sony A7RV and Canon R1 will settle at around 100-102 MPX for full frame, with Fuji enjoying a 128 MPX MF unit. Phase One has had the exclusive on the 150 MPX but that's surely about to expire. In which case, it could make it into the top of the line Fuji (let's call it GFX150).
Don't retailers have a 30-day price guarantee?