Nikon Z9 update to get Internal 12 bit N-Raw, 8.3K 60 FPS
- Thread starter Tom Roper
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Joshua Milligan
Well-known member
I understand RED's patent and I respect business rights, so by default I support their ability to protect their patent. That being said, I cannot wait until the patent is over. It's done nothing but stunt growth in the industry.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Yeah, I feel the same way, and respect to the rich getting richer for an astonishing business move in tech, but completely ruined the industry's path.
But I will also add that it perhaps worked out in others' favor (initially, and mostly the Japanese) because they were able to milk specs for the next 10-15 years and make a lot of money.
But I will also add that it perhaps worked out in others' favor (initially, and mostly the Japanese) because they were able to milk specs for the next 10-15 years and make a lot of money.
Joshua Milligan
Well-known member
It makes you wonder what's going to happen once the patent is gone. I'm super curious to see what companies like Sony, Canon, Nikon and Panasonic all do.
The main error of Nikon as one of the cartel members was not go after Red's professional camera business and thus either force Red to negotiate on their Raw patents or watch its market share shrink from a competitor with the economy of scale production. But, of course, had Nikon gone after Red, it would have also gone after Sony, its sole sensor manufacturer and cartel's ringleader. (and Canon also but the two are more or less competitors anyway)
I see Nikon's legal team filing some sort of a counter suit outside the US under a more favorable jurisdiction. Mitsubishi has the financial muscle to make this legal battle a very expensive proposition for Red. From a purely financial perspective, the revenues generated from this one Nikon model are probably negligible but Red has to put up a fight in order to prevent others from piling on.
I see Nikon's legal team filing some sort of a counter suit outside the US under a more favorable jurisdiction. Mitsubishi has the financial muscle to make this legal battle a very expensive proposition for Red. From a purely financial perspective, the revenues generated from this one Nikon model are probably negligible but Red has to put up a fight in order to prevent others from piling on.
NorBro
Major Contributor
With a measly 43 billion for 2021, Mitsubishi has no chance if Apple didn't think it was a good idea to continue challenging them after they lost (meaning they likely knew enough to understand it was a lost cause).
Kinefinity dropped its RAW to sell cameras in the United States. It wouldn't be worth challenging it unless you don't care about selling cameras in the USA, which then it wouldn't make sense to sell cameras at all (unless you have a very strong hold of the Japanese market).
In my mind, it seems like you indeed have to do something for RED to play nice (like license a mount or work on their monitors), or tweak your RAW enough technically to make them happy. I don't know though.
Kinefinity dropped its RAW to sell cameras in the United States. It wouldn't be worth challenging it unless you don't care about selling cameras in the USA, which then it wouldn't make sense to sell cameras at all (unless you have a very strong hold of the Japanese market).
In my mind, it seems like you indeed have to do something for RED to play nice (like license a mount or work on their monitors), or tweak your RAW enough technically to make them happy. I don't know though.
I didn't think it made sense for Apple, an American company from California, to fight Red, another American company from California, with both of them heavily involved in the entertainment industry. It made more sense for them to work something out.
Nikon is a bird of a different feather. If it wants, it can tie Red in courts for years and that would be a very expensive proposition for Red. Mind you, the TicoRAW codec is a licensed product from a Belgian company Info Pix and those guys work under the EU courts. And those don't always go along with those in the US.
When this was first brought up, my immediate thought was, "Nikon and Info Pix know everything there is to know about Red's patents and are getting ready for a fight". I'll speculate that Red was approaching it in is usual rambunctious manner but was trying to work something out with both companies over the last five months ... to no avail. Nikon and Info Pix dug in their heels because a fight is what they wanted all along.
Or they could settle for a few pennies per unit shipped tomorrow. Because the Z9 codec licensing amounts wouldn't even cover their legal teams retainer fees.
Nikon is a bird of a different feather. If it wants, it can tie Red in courts for years and that would be a very expensive proposition for Red. Mind you, the TicoRAW codec is a licensed product from a Belgian company Info Pix and those guys work under the EU courts. And those don't always go along with those in the US.
When this was first brought up, my immediate thought was, "Nikon and Info Pix know everything there is to know about Red's patents and are getting ready for a fight". I'll speculate that Red was approaching it in is usual rambunctious manner but was trying to work something out with both companies over the last five months ... to no avail. Nikon and Info Pix dug in their heels because a fight is what they wanted all along.
Or they could settle for a few pennies per unit shipped tomorrow. Because the Z9 codec licensing amounts wouldn't even cover their legal teams retainer fees.
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NorBro
Major Contributor
It's possible, that all makes good sense - but with that same ideology then RED can invite Apple to dinner and kindly mention that their next iPhones and iPads will be allowed to shoot ProRes RAW - 6 years ahead of schedule (which I assume is the reason Apple challenged them in the first place) - and then suddenly RED may appear to have an endless bank account to fight back.
These kind of hypothetical scenarios are awesome, technology is crazy.
[P.S. The weird thing about the Apple/RED relationship is the suit came years after Apple was selling the RED Raven in its stores, which is as unusual as it gets.]
These kind of hypothetical scenarios are awesome, technology is crazy.
[P.S. The weird thing about the Apple/RED relationship is the suit came years after Apple was selling the RED Raven in its stores, which is as unusual as it gets.]
My take is that ProRes Raw made more sense in the high end - and now low end - video cameras than in iPhones. Because it's still a bleeping iPhone!
And in terms of revenues, Apple's ProRes family brought in enough revenues for Red - if that's the assumption - to figure out numbers that made enough sense for everyone involved (peanuts for Apple but helps them sell a lot of hardware in Hollywood and a decent chunk of change for Red).
However, my assumption is that Nikon wants to bring compressed Raw to most of its Z-lineup within a few years and is not willing to defer its decision making to Red. And, with Z9 finally getting a reasonable quality auto focus, it wants the low-medium portion of the pro market. And Red is who it wants to knock out of the ring.
PS. I have mentioned here years ago that Red was the unwilling beneficiary of the cartel because it was far more flexible in terms of pricing/feature structure but that, at some point, Sony, Canon and Nikon will simply swallow the market or, at least, the portion of the market that doesn't belong to ARRI. Covid related slowdown may have effected everyone's plans but the falling costs of hardware has brought 8K into the "consumer" tier and that's what Nikon is going after. And Red, KINFINITY, Blackmagic Design, etc. will have to battle another heavyweight in the ring. The heavyweight that seems to have quit looking like a fool.
And in terms of revenues, Apple's ProRes family brought in enough revenues for Red - if that's the assumption - to figure out numbers that made enough sense for everyone involved (peanuts for Apple but helps them sell a lot of hardware in Hollywood and a decent chunk of change for Red).
However, my assumption is that Nikon wants to bring compressed Raw to most of its Z-lineup within a few years and is not willing to defer its decision making to Red. And, with Z9 finally getting a reasonable quality auto focus, it wants the low-medium portion of the pro market. And Red is who it wants to knock out of the ring.
PS. I have mentioned here years ago that Red was the unwilling beneficiary of the cartel because it was far more flexible in terms of pricing/feature structure but that, at some point, Sony, Canon and Nikon will simply swallow the market or, at least, the portion of the market that doesn't belong to ARRI. Covid related slowdown may have effected everyone's plans but the falling costs of hardware has brought 8K into the "consumer" tier and that's what Nikon is going after. And Red, KINFINITY, Blackmagic Design, etc. will have to battle another heavyweight in the ring. The heavyweight that seems to have quit looking like a fool.
NorBro
Major Contributor
It could make sense as I can picture a worldwide transition from ProRes to ProRes RAW eventually taking place, but it would make zero sense if other NLEs can't fully utilize it besides FCP X.
But iPhones and iPads having ProRes RAW is inevitable, it is a guarantee.
And you've been saying for like 10 years RED is in trouble - and they very well could be - but they are still here and Hollywood's #2.
The rest of the powerful paper spec cameras are for YouTube.
But iPhones and iPads having ProRes RAW is inevitable, it is a guarantee.
And you've been saying for like 10 years RED is in trouble - and they very well could be - but they are still here and Hollywood's #2.
The rest of the powerful paper spec cameras are for YouTube.
I haven't visited Red Forum in ages but the general feeling I get - hoping someone working on sets or in pro sales can chime in - is that LF and LF Mini ate up a lot of what was once Red's market. In fact, the two of them probably ate up everything in the pro sector. Red's still got the 8K portion of the high end niche - because ARRI doesn't give a flying fig about 8K - but the LF's are dominating and it's getting close to lights-out for Red.
Let's see - the new ARRI Super 35 is 14.6 million pixels in a 3:2 open gate, so LF-ing it with the double is 29.2. Which is pretty close to 8K. Tripling it a la Alexa65 will bring it to 44 MPX, which is a slightly oversampled 8K. I think that's their plan going forward.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
just release a 'stills camera' that shoots 60 raw photos per second. simples.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
True, it would actually be 6.3k wide with 2 sensors stitched together and rotated sideways. So, only 6k (or maybe 5.6k-ish if they want to maintain a similar amount of oversampling as they do in 4k)
Tripling it gets you to 8k with oversampling
But I'm definitely in the 4k-is-good-enough-just-give-me-a-prettier-picture-crowd. Those extra details (if they're even desirable to see) are not currently making it to my eyeballs on the compressed (and typically lower-resolution) streams I watch. You could probably observe them in theaters with 4k projection, or if you download a full quality file
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
to me 8+ k has total legitamacy if you work in advertising making images that might be on 50 screens next to a travelator or need a 3 story high image of a perfume bottle for a store foyer. People who think images are about tv/screens/20foot viewing distance cinema are a little blinkered ?
beond that 1080 made from 2.8k is good!
beond that 1080 made from 2.8k is good!
Grug
Veteran
Red are still doing well with the owner-operator crowd, they just aren't that popular in the more formal rental market - where Arri has dominated since the Alexa came out in 2010, and only Sony's Venice has managed to eat up a significant amount of market share (just in the last two years or so).
It'll be really interesting to see how Venice 2 fairs against Alexa35. They're both so close to perfect operationally. There's been such a big swing over to the Venice (with it's 5-second boot times, dual-ISO, and 1-8 stops of ND), that it'll be interesting to see if people are willing to give up the faster boot times and 1-8 stops of ND, for the extra 2.5 stops of DR with the Arri (at the cost of 75% less resolution, and only a 2-stop/4-stop/6-stop ND system).
Of course, ARRI did its Faux Four K (I am not Four K, if you're not Four K but only 2.8 K) too. Faux 8K just doesn't sound as exciting.
The potential here is the Netflix push into 8K and thus its stated preference for the "pure" 8K cameras. But 8K requires a lot of extra bandwidth and is generally looked at with mild indifference. As with the early 4K, it might find home in travel/nature programs but the narrative will be content with that awful 6K resolution, up-res'ed upon need into 8K with the "don't fill up that buffer yet" warning.
Besides, Netflix is having other problems and no longer has that "don't flux with Flix" attitude.
The narrative makes no sense but most of the frames look pretty nice (though I could do without eight zillion anamorphic flares but, hey, that's me).
Venice II is obviously a legitimate high end contender. I wonder if Sony is more competitive in Asia and Australia vs. ARRI than in Hollywood. Its ~$60,000 price tag seems to take it above the owner/op market and, with neither Sony nor Canon having anything in that $25,000-$35,000 range, Red can battle on. But probably not for long..