Nikon in Dire Straits

NorBro said:
What do you personally think is the reason why Panasonic in their right mind wouldn't pay for PD pixels?

To cut to the chase; there is no answer that can justify this decision at this point in time, IMO.

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Like 2016...fine, AF still isn't a thing just yet (although that year was the true reliable start).

2017...let's see what happens.

2018+...still no decent AF?

I'm just not buying it (no pun intended).
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We can only speculate but a lot of things don't make sense from our perspective but if I was going to try to take theirs.

I think their attitude in regards to AF-C is that only non-professional consumers needed it and contrast based AF was good enough for them. For higher end cameras pros don't use AF. Some corporations once they decide on something it becomes impossible to change. When people started to film themselves and vlog that's when C-AF became a big selling point. They convinced themselves all they needed to do was tweak their contrast af. And by this time sales had really started to be eaten up by smartphones. I can see the board meeting where sales are down and someone is purposing to spend loads of time and money on a new phase detect af system. Those executives who shot down phase detect aren't about to admit they were wrong when they can double down and try to improve contrast based instead. In fairness they have improved it and if we didn't have Sony and Canon PD to compare it against we'd be ok with it too. But that's not how it played out. I don't think Panasonic has many good options. They're really behind so even if they could spend a lot of money they could only hope to match Sony and Canon, which would only put them on equal footing. If they haven't been working on it, then it would take years to develop. By that time it won't matter. I'm thinking they're just going to try to hold out as long as they can and bow out of mirrorless in a few years if sales don't turn around. They probably have 3-5yrs depending on how long they want to drag this out. They've got that whole L lens alliance debacle.. which hurt them more than the af. For now things are ok but these type of mistakes have a way of gaining momentum. By the time these mistakes fully manifest there won't be anything for them to do.
 
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All makes perfect sense, but once again only in the past, IMO...and not in 2020 when you have cameras like the S5 without decent AF when you had time to engage in damage control and swallow your pride.
 
I mean...in other industries and in fair competition, you RACE to match your competitors' specs or you try to out-spec them.

The very specific camera world is bonkers.

Think about it...almost all of it was all controlled by one country for a very long time.

If you (anyone) seriously have followed so many cameras like myself and others on here over many years, the minimal improvements and the division of desired technical additions in the models year-after-year are straight up deranged.

It's only now, push comes to shove, that we're seeing much better systems, at least on paper.
 
And what you end up with is a guy like me with a bundle of EF lenses making an investment in an essentially matching set of FE lenses as I jump ship to Sony because canon cameras aren't doing it for me.

You've got Sam Morgan Moore on the fence about jumping ship from Nikon because they're not up on the video side. But he's got some Nikon glass, he likes their lenses. He has EF lens access. The path forward is unclear.

So, the result is that we all end up buying more cameras/lenses than we would otherwise have to if their products weren't handicapped in different ways. Which means more spending for the industry as a whole

And my ardent hope is that I can just stick with Sony here on out because the cameras will be good enough even if they're not always the best
 
ahalpert said:
So, the result is that we all end up buying more cameras/lenses than we would otherwise have to if their products weren't handicapped in different ways. Which means more spending for the industry as a whole.
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Exactly.

And that result is more and more $$$ year after year.

And the system has worked.

It is about controlling money...what 99% of life is about, unfortunately.
 
I joined the dark side. I bought an iphone 12. Just used it on a job I did the other day. Not as a primary camera, but to give me extra angle. Did well enough that I got Filmic Pro and will probably get a gimal for it. But I disagree about running out and buying mirrorless cameras and lens systems. That's a huge investment that I can't currently justify. It far cheaper to keep it for the subject of message boards convos. For us it's a lot of money in the grand scheme of things the demand and quantity needed to sustain these companies isn't going to come from a few video forum junkies suffering from a chronic case of G.A.S.
 
Peter C. said:
. For us it's a lot of money in the grand scheme of things the demand and quantity needed to sustain these companies isn't going to come from a few video forum junkies suffering from a chronic case of G.A.S.
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It's worse than that because the specs had to get good enough eventually. It's the end of the road for the checkerboard strategy as far as I'm concerned.

That's why I felt comfortable sinking into sony. The a7siii checks my boxes - no overheating limits, generally reliable, reliable autofocus, 10-bit 4k60p internal, log, pleasing SOOC color, good low-light and RS. I dont need more than that and if they somehow go backwards with future models I can stick with this one. It was an easy call for me since I do stills infrequently enough that I can just pull out my 5dmk3 if ever required.

8K, internal raw, better AF, more than 120fps, more DR... none of those will necessitate an upgrade for me. Although I'd be happy to end up with an fx6, an a7siii, an a7iv (or a9 whatever), and an a6700 (or whatever the 10-bit flagship APS-C camera will be) for multi-camera and strength of diversity. And then sell all EF and m43 gear
 
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That was a good decision. I'm waiting on the A7IV. I'd like to sell all my Canon and Nikon gear and consolidate to just one platform. Sony and E-mount have a good future. Canon R5 was tempting but over heating, expensive R mount lenses, yada yada
 
Peter C. said:
. Canon R5 was tempting but over heating, expensive R mount lenses, yada yada
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Right. Canon will get there soon. Maybe it's the R7, maybe it's the R5mk2, but the overheating issue will go away. And 3rd party companies will come out with all the same lenses for RF as they did for E mount. I just needed a camera now

The main drawback of the A7SIII is the low stills resolution, but luckily it's not a priority for me
 
ahalpert said:
I just needed a camera now

The main drawback of the A7SIII is the low stills resolution, but luckily it's not a priority for me
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I always rather have what I need now as opposed to waiting for some indeterminate time to get something that will have different issues

I love these guys (you can jump to 3:30 talking about resolution) but the whole video is entertaining
https://youtu.be/LLeOu18lXTw
 
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For whits and giggles.

These are the AF sensor specs for the ubiquitously popular sensor. The numericals are for the AF points.

Sony A7III --- Phase Detection: 693; Contrast Detection: 425

A7c --- Phase Detection: 693; Contrast Detection: 425

Panasonic S1 --- Contrast Detection: 225

Panasonic S1H --- Contrast Detection: 225

Panasonic S5 --- Contrast Detection: 225

Nikon Z6II --- Phase Detection: 273

Sigma fp - Contrast Detection: 49

Leica SL Contrast Detection: 225

And, for more giggles,

A7SIII --- Phase Detection: 759, Contrast Detection: 425

A7 RIV - Phase Detection: 567, Contrast Detection: 425

R5 - Phase Detection: 1053

R6 - Phase Detection: 1053

Fuji GFX 100 (medium format) - Phase Detection: 3760000 (according to B&H), 425 (according to the DP Review, not specified the breakdown between CD and PD)
 
ahalpert said:
But he's got some Nikon glass, he likes their lenses. He has EF lens access.
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MF (work on canon sony red F35 nikon) 18 20 24 28/2 28/3.5pc 35 50 55mcro 85/2 135/2.5 135/2 180/2.8 200/f4 28-85 35-70 50-300 100-300 35-100
AF D (dont work on Z6) 14 20-35 50 400/2.8 -this is bad!
Af G (work on z6) 10fishDX, 18-70DX 70-200f4 10-24TonkaDx
Not repairable 600/f4 mf only.
CanonFd 28 50 135
MFT 12mm SLRtragic.
Sony joke lenses that I got free with cameras 16pancake 18-55 18-200


That 26 nikkor lenses? Ive probably forgotton some.

I started my working life with in maybe 1992 with a nikon FM2 using the same 24, 50 and 135 that I use on my FS7, bought used in the early 1990s. Ive had (4) 70-200 fall apart on me and scratched the rear element on a few 20s some 17-35s lock up.
In stills I realised switching to AF was viable and required (bought nikon F4, F500?) in about 1998 (yes on film)
The nikon D3 in 2004 (?) was viable in every way AF, resolution, performance. The D1 had been a money pit.
 
It seems to me, Sam, that the only lenses that would keep you in Nikon are the AF G lenses? (PS what does TonkaDx mean? Tokina?)

Because otherwise it looks like they're manual focus on the Z6, and they'd be manual focus on any other camera as well? So, not a huge number of autofocus motors to moot by going elsewhere

All my EF lenses are just as usable on the a7siii as they were on my gh5 or my 5dmk3 where I used them only manually as well.
 
For me Nikon is the symbol of a „traditional“ photographer from the last millennium. They both have nice stills in the portfolio and recognition too. But there is no more money in that business model. When your old style clients retire you’re out of the business too. They have played a bit with video but no one took it serious. They were not able to gain new clients.
 
TO some extent that was me.. but in 2008 I was fairly fed up with stills and the magazine market was shrinking..and the D90 came out - as soon as I picked up a camera that looked like a nikon (narrow DOF not a 1/3 vid tape cam) but did motion I was hooked and new it was my new path.I feel lucky to have had some hints on how to proceed as most of my chums staffed the local BBC newsroom.
 
Year's loss $446M. The boss is blaming a slow transition to mirrorless. I blame playing the second fiddle to Sony.

Rumors persist that Nikon may sell-off its photo-video division a la Olympus.
 
DLD said:
Year's loss $446M. The boss is blaming a slow transition to mirrorless. I blame playing the second fiddle to Sony.

Rumors persist that Nikon may sell-off its photo-video division a la Olympus.
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I'd be surprised if they don't do this. The stills market is on life support and getting ready to flatline other than a few niche companies and cameras, possibly like Fuji. Fuji is small,
they don't need to sell a huge amount of cameras like Sony or Canon for a model to be considered a win.
 
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