Nikon D800 Live HDMI Stream

Now the 24p option on the Nikon is different normally when you have 24p the output has a 3:2 pulldown applied and outputs as 60i, not in the Nikon! it is 30psf which out Ninja firmware does reconstruct to give 24p recording on the Ninja. My colleague is putting together an article about how this works and we will add it to our knowledge base soon as it is causing a lot of confusion.


This is from Atomos support.
 
Thanks Bob, everything you said is pretty basic video knowledge, I was just making an ass out of myself and assuming what the menu settings were.

I believe you can do 2224 pulldown removal with CinemaTools, but I'll have to double check.
 
This is what "Head Of Support" at Atomos wrote to me:


"We have been told of a lot of confusion about what the nikon actually outputs, is this what you are referring to?
When you look at the output options for the Nikon camera you only have 1080i or 720p, there is no option for 1080p output because the camera does not support it. Nikon output a progressive stream wrapped in 60i for computability.
We detect the 24P, 25P, 30P, or 50P 720 inside and then remove the 60i to leave a beautiful image form the original sensor.
The Ninja Firmware 2.1 does enable the Nikon images to captured."
 
Stuart U said:
This is what "Head Of Support" at Atomos wrote to me:

"We have been told of a lot of confusion about what the nikon actually outputs, is this what you are referring to?
When you look at the output options for the Nikon camera you only have 1080i or 720p, there is no option for 1080p output because the camera does not support it. Nikon output a progressive stream wrapped in 60i for computability.
We detect the 24P, 25P, 30P, or 50P 720 inside and then remove the 60i to leave a beautiful image form the original sensor.
The Ninja Firmware 2.1 does enable the Nikon images to captured."
Click to expand...

It seems that the Atomos "Head of Support" knows less than we do, for the moment.
It shouldn't take long for him/her to catch up, though.
Or perhaps the question was not put precisely enough.

-- Bob Elkind
 
Brian@202020 said:
I believe you can do 2224 pulldown removal with CinemaTools, but I'll have to double check.
Click to expand...
Yes, but 3 weeks after you captured the video and you are rummaging through a source material library (with many contributors and video sources), how will CinemaTools know that reverse 2224 is the correct filter to apply, if any?

-- Bob Elkind
 
It's my understanding the 2:2:2:4 pulldown is the easiest pulldown to detect and remove since it's a single duplicate frame added instead of one field from one frame and one field from another frame like 3:2 and Panasonic's widely used 2:3:3:2 Pulldowns. I would think no matter how long ago the capture was it would be easy to detect with any modern NLE. Am I wrong?
 
Brian@202020 said:
It's my understanding the 2:2:2:4 pulldown is the easiest pulldown to detect and remove since it's a single duplicate frame added instead of one field from one frame and one field from another frame like 3:2 and Panasonic's widely used 2:3:3:2 Pulldowns. I would think no matter how long ago the capture was it would be easy to detect with any modern NLE. Am I wrong?
Click to expand...
Many of the low-cost HDMI recorders use lossy compression. So what started out as "duplicate" frames or fields may not end up as duplicate (100% match) frames or fields. Lossy compression can wipe out all the usual clues needed for reliable reversal of pulldown. Don't expect a NLE to guess between the various 24p to 60i pulldowns, plus 30p to 60i (2:2) pulldown.

Plus there's the matter of guessing whether the fields should be merged into frames starting with the EVEN fields or the ODD fields -- even if the "duplicate" fields match.

You are much better off if

1. The recorder reverses pulldown to native format before compression and recording.

2. The recorder supports D4/D800 native HDMI formats, and there is no need for pulldown or pulldown reversal.

-- Bob Elkind

Updated and corrected to account for the HyperDeck recorders. Thanks, Brian!
 
Last edited:
eteam said:
None of the low-cost HDMI recorders use lossless compression. So what started out as "duplicate" frames or fields will almost certainly not end up as duplicate (100% match) frames or fields. Lossy compression can wipe out all the usual clues needed for reliable reversal of pulldown. Don't expect a NLE to guess between the various 24p to 60i pulldowns, plus 30p to 60i (2:2) pulldown.
Click to expand...

The Hyperdeck Shuttle and Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 can both record lossless HDMI. Both are under $350 for the recorder which make them the cheapest out there. I do agree it would be better for the recorder to do it tho.
 
lasikdenver said:
Do you think with the Connect that the Samurai will be able work with the D4 changing HDMI to SDI?
Click to expand...
I agree with Brian's answer to this question, and toss in another 2 bits.

If the HDMI => SDI converter is sufficiently capable, it will support the D4/D800 native HDMI signal formats. Then there is no need for pulldown or pulldown reversal.

And if there is a need for pulldown, the SDI standards provide for ancillary data and timecode, either of which can tell the downstream device all that is needed for absolutely correct handling of the signal (including pulldown reversal, if needed). The HDMI => SDI converter would need to provide these bits in most situations, as there are no HDMI standards for timecode or pulldown markers (if present they would be proprietary).

Does this make sense?

-- Bob Elkind
 
Brian@202020 said:
The Hyperdeck Shuttle and Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 can both record lossless HDMI. Both are under $350 for the recorder which make them the cheapest out there. I do agree it would be better for the recorder to do it tho.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that. I imagine at that price, the storage media is not included. Uncompressed or lossless compressed storage has its advantages and disadvantages, but that would indeed be a risk-free solution.

-- Bob Elkind
 
Yeah the storage fast enough for the uncompressed recordings is another good chunk of money. I have the Hyperdeck Shuttle 2, but I mostly record DNxHD on slower cheeper SSD's.
 
Stuart U said:
This is what "Head Of Support" at Atomos wrote to me:


"We have been told of a lot of confusion about what the nikon actually outputs, is this what you are referring to?
When you look at the output options for the Nikon camera you only have 1080i or 720p, there is no option for 1080p output because the camera does not support it. Nikon output a progressive stream wrapped in 60i for computability.
We detect the 24P, 25P, 30P, or 50P 720 inside and then remove the 60i to leave a beautiful image form the original sensor.
The Ninja Firmware 2.1 does enable the Nikon images to captured."
Click to expand...

I hope Atmos does a test such as Aja has done to determine what the camera is capable of outputting when the HDMI is set to Auto, and does not simply assume the camera incapable of 1080p HDMI output simply because it is not an option in the menu.
 
Last edited:
eteam said:
If the HDMI => SDI converter is sufficiently capable, it will support the D4/D800 native HDMI signal formats. Then there is no need for pulldown or pulldown reversal.
Does this make sense?

-- Bob Elkind
Click to expand...

If true, then fantastic. In any case, everything you write makes sense :)
 
Hi Guys.

Just an update to the HDMI Live Stream out of the Nikon D800 using an external recorder like the Atomos Ninja. It appears that the Nikon D800 Live Output is different to the Nikon D4 and the development of the Ninja firmware with Nikon cameras was developed around the the D4. It appears there are some minor issues that Atomos are working on at present. I don't have an specifics, all I know is the the two cameras output the data stream differently.

Stay tuned.
 
Hi All,

Have just had an update from Atomos that they have released firmware 2.2 for the Ninja specific for the D800. It appears that it can now record the true progressive stream from the camera without wrapping it in an interlaced format. Check out their support site for details: http://www.atomos.com/support/
 
Stephenh said:
Have just had an update from Atomos that they have released firmware 2.2 for the Ninja specific for the D800. It appears that it can now record the true progressive stream from the camera without wrapping it in an interlaced format.
Click to expand...

Has anyone heard or read or otherwise verified that Ninja firmware 2.2 fully supports both D4 and D800?

-- Bob Elkind
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top