Nikon D4 (vs D800)

G

Geronimo

Member
I felt bad about continuing to post D4 info over in the D800 thread, so wanted to start up a new thread with more of a focus on the D4, and how it compares to the D800.

I wound up getting my hands on both bodies, and put together 12 quick tests, ranging from D4/D800, USM, in-camera sharpening, and crop comparisons:

http://vimeo.com/album/1884940

Overall, from my tests, I found that the D4 is softer/less detailed than the D800, but has great color reproduction and protection against aliasing and noise. The D800 has nicer detail, but aliasing kept appearing in my footage (and I didn't even set out to test for that - aliasing in eyebrows? ouch!), noise is noticeable, and in some areas, such as shadows, the color reproduction wasn't as good.

I wish Nikon had created an ehtusiast/prosumer level of video quality in one body, and a professional level of video quality in the other body. Instead, it seems they have created two different qualities of video on a lateral level, but with trade-offs - good image in terms of detail vs good image in terms of color reproduction and lack of aliasing and noise.

Anyone else considering the D4 as their next filmmaking tool? If so, what are your thoughts?
 
Perhaps a silly ?, but is there possibly a NR setting that can be tweaked? I'm really surprised by the lack of noise in some examples that I've seen and the perponderance of noise in others. It's very difficult to reconcile.
 
I agree on what you say.
I´ll be getting both cameras for now.
Once the AA filter add on is developed for the D800 I think there won´t be much sense to keep the D4. On the meantime I love the color tone of the D4. The low res makes it very filmic. A GH2 for example is extremely sharp and produces great images BUT not filmic at all. It looks like just HD TV.
 
I’ve been agonizing about this for many moons. Scarlet vs. video camera vs. hdslr and then which one?

Eventually it was about my specific needs. I come from a writing background and so I’m looking at shooting my own full feature dramas eventually and for the style I want it has to be full frame. At some point I had those 35mm adapters but the quality wasn’t great. Super 35 is not perfect for me.

Also, low light is key. Many scenes do take place during the night and I used to get horrible noise. That problem needed to be remedied without over lighting because it costs money and it’s warm and it takes time and it requires power. I wanted to light for aesthetics and not camera noise.

We’re into photography and have great Nikon glass. If I went for Canon or Panasonic or any video I would have to take the glass that comes with it, or get other brands etc.

With the above, it lead me to Scarlet vs Nikon HDSLR and that was a year ago when these weren’t even here yet. In the mean time I had to wait until Nikon came out with something I wanted. The whole Scarlet package is just too expensive. The 4k isn’t something I must have and I’ll suffer through not being able to crop, but so be it.

When the D4 and D800 was announced the HDMI out was noted too. I was thrilled to be able to manage post better with more info in the image to handle colour etc.

Right, so now it’s between the D800 and the D4. Initially it was an easy decision because if I decide to spend money I will do it properly instead of suffering buyer’s remorse and thus the D4 it will be. Then I learnt of the softer image and on top of that, the down sampling that is done with the D800 to get to Full HD kills the noise problem so it’s not a great argument anymore to take the D4.

I like the softer feel because I have no intention of broadcasting. I want film on budget. In fact, I like the look, especially on full frame because I prefer using shallow depth of field. I personally feel it's slightly over stated. It's not that bad at all.

The last little bits that kept me with the D4 were:
  • Low light seems to be better without down sampling;
  • DR seems better;
  • I like the WT 5 wireless;
  • The 400 000 shutter;
  • The 2.7 crop (for normal home video shooting kids);
  • The solid body that could take a knock;
  • Taking picture while in video (although not at 16 MP);
  • Better handling of aliasing;
  • The XQD slot and the little surprise of having a 16GB and reader in the box;
  • And there are one or two other things I can’t recall now.
There always ends up being small things that make the difference. The bottom line is that a pixel of the D4 is larger than a pixel of the D800 and you can’t get around having that benefit. Thinking ahead, a firmware update can't increase the size of the pixel, it could improve processing the data that comes from it.
 
while I don't have a D800 to compare, my tests with my new D4 also show the video to be soft on FX but brilliant with the 2.7 crop. i've opened up a thread with Nikon tech support to hear their feedback about this since i suspect the downsampling could be improved on with a simple firmware update

the video softness aside, the D4 is an amazing camera! in my opinion the AF, dynamic range, and ISO are crazy good, it just needs a few tweaks...
 
cholson said:
while I don't have a D800 to compare, my tests with my new D4 also show the video to be soft on FX but brilliant with the 2.7 crop. i've opened up a thread with Nikon tech support to hear their feedback about this since i suspect the downsampling could be improved on with a simple firmware update

the video softness aside, the D4 is an amazing camera! in my opinion the AF, dynamic range, and ISO are crazy good, it just needs a few tweaks...
Click to expand...

Yes, I opened a support ticket with Nikon as well in the hopes that if more people draw attention to this problem, that Nikon can fix it with firmware.

I'd highly suggest all other D4 users do the same.


On a side note, when you guys got your cameras, did you check the shutter count? If so, what was it at? I bought mine from a local store and the D4 had a count of 65, and the D800 had a count of 503. I've taken the D800 back and will receive a new one in the next shipment, and am debating doing the same with the D4.

Am pretty peeved that I received two camera bodies from a local store, and both had a large shutter count.
 
Geronimo said:
Yes, I opened a support ticket with Nikon as well in the hopes that if more people draw attention to this problem, that Nikon can fix it with firmware.

I'd highly suggest all other D4 users do the same.


On a side note, when you guys got your cameras, did you check the shutter count? If so, what was it at? I bought mine from a local store and the D4 had a count of 65, and the D800 had a count of 503. I've taken the D800 back and will receive a new one in the next shipment, and am debating doing the same with the D4.

Am pretty peeved that I received two camera bodies from a local store, and both had a large shutter count.
Click to expand...

I absolutely see where your coming from that is total BS. Id send it back too, even with as little as 65 shutter actuations.
 
Here's a link to the exact same D4 issue:

http://www.eoshd.com/content/7620/3000-nikon-d800-thrashes-flagship-6000-nikon-d4-for-video#c2

IF this is indeed the case, why spend $6000 for a full frame sensor camera that only shoots well in crop mode? And the noise on the D800 looks horrible in the examples you and at least one other person have posted. (But in some other cases is fine.)

I'm very thankful that you are being a guinea pig for all of. But I'd seriously consider getting a refund on both cameras. JMHO, and good luck.
 
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macgregor said:
I agree on what you say.
I´ll be getting both cameras for now.
Once the AA filter add on is developed for the D800 I think there won´t be much sense to keep the D4. On the meantime I love the color tone of the D4. The low res makes it very filmic. A GH2 for example is extremely sharp and produces great images BUT not filmic at all. It looks like just HD TV.
Click to expand...

couldnt agree more , with all that talk and the race for the best sharpest footage from a dslr and all that praise on gh series/panasonic resolutions ( with the hacks ofcourse ), it seems that people have forgotten or dont pay attention that it looks like you said hdtv
 
while i'm not a big fan of the eoshd.com viewpoint and consider their views to be heavily biased, i have seen the softness firsthand and it is there. that said, the samples in that website review make it out to be much worse than my personal experience has been. it's softer that the 2.7 crop, but not unusable...

and yes, if the only reason i purchased a D4 was for the video, i can understand why you might say i should return it. since i'm planning to the D4 for both photography and video projects, i'll hold on and trust/hope that this video hiccup gets fixed in a firmware update soon

{guinea pig snort}
 
Actually, they compare the FX vs the x2.7 mode and while it´s absolutely true that the 2.7x mode is way sharper, the video example they post (some interviews in Viena) looks aweful and videoish. If what you want is extreme detail get the GH2, it´s way cheaper and so much better. I don´t see the point of using the nikon on x2.7 mode only.
 
Have any of you guys done post sharpening on the footage like people are doing with the mark III? Does it make any difference or make it look worse?
 
Alright, I've done and seen enough tests for myself and have decided - I'm going to run with the D4, and not the D800, as my new cinematography tool.

Through all the tests I've run, and the many video clips popping up around the net (and using common sense to filter out the obvious misinformation posts), the D800 just suffers way too much from random aliasing (it may be better than the 5Dmk2, but still very noticeable), and doesn't handle higher ISO's well, and in some cases, also doesn't handle color reproduction well.

The D4 rocks at high ISO and color, and the overall pictures just look great, though, yes, are a bit softer. But, through testing, I've found that adding USM in post, or bumping the Neutral Picture Control in-camera sharpening from its default of 2 to 3, makes them look really good. True, sharpening doesn't add detail, but it does add "perceived detail", which is a concept overlooked by many pixel peepers, such as dpreview’ers, but very important, though unconsciously, to the viewer, especially the cinematic viewership.

With all of my tests though, I do realize and freely admit one flaw. I shot the D4 and D800 footage from the same tripod location. The D800 actually crops the FX/1.0x mode, so that it uses only 91% of the sensor. Some individuals consider this as nothing, but I consider this crop difference drastic – look at my videos, decide for yourself.

Now, I still agree that the D800 allows for a little more detail, but that 9% crop difference means the D4 was positioned that much (and noticeably that much) farther away from the subject. I ran a quick test wherein I shot a scene on the D800, and then used the video preview on the D800 to move the D4 on the tripod towards the subject a bit to give it the same frame as the D800, and the D4's result was much more similar to the D800 than any of my test videos show.

And tonight, I came across this video:
http://cameratown.com/tv/?dlink=513

That guy bumped the D4 Sharpness up too much, and would look better if he brought it down one notch, but overall, still looks very good. The D800, on the other hand, once again shows terrible aliasing on the brick wall. This guy's video is pretty consistent with my test findings between the D4 and D800 (minus the over sharpening on the D4).

For my filmmaking/videography work, I simply cannot live with the bad aliasing, noise, and color reproduction, but I can live with "filmic" video, even if a little too much on the soft side (and can always make up for it with the True HD 2.7x crop if I really need full clarity and detail).

I still plan on continuing to work with Nikon Support about the softer 1.0x, and the unusable 1.5x, to see if it can be improved via future firmware, but for now, the decision has been made:

The Nikon D4 is my new filmmaking tool.

I would hope this thread and conversation continues for others still considering the D4 vs D800. If wanted, I will be more than happy to continue posting D4 video tests and clips, but I will quickly be parting from the D800, and will no longer have the ability to present D4 vs D800 tests.

If there is any info/video/test specific to the D4 that you are curious about, shoot me a PM and I will be happy to respond in PM or in this thread.

Good luck to the still-undecided shoppers out there! A lot of fantastic equipment - I hope you find the gear that fits your needs and style!
 
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BobbyMurcerFan said:
Here's a link to the exact same D4 issue:

http://www.eoshd.com/content/7620/3000-nikon-d800-thrashes-flagship-6000-nikon-d4-for-video#c2
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if this guy has some sort of agenda (such as being a D800 fanboy, or Canon fanboy simply trying to pass along misinformation to Nikon enthusiasts), but, frankly, I consider the majority of his comparison review as absolute s*%te.

Nothing - NOTHING - I shot on the D4 in FX (1.0x) mode REMOTELY looks like that guy's D4 FX/1.0x screenshot, except for when I cranked up the in-camera sharpening FAR past any acceptable level.

His 2.7x crop screenshot looks spot on (it really does look that good), but his FX/1.0x screenshot is BS. You can view any of my video shot at 1.0x, and you'll see that the video looks nothing like his screenshot, at least up until I get to my USM/in-camera sharpening tests. (If you feel you can't trust my many video tests, then hit Vimeo or YouTube, and look for the latest D4 full-frame video tests - you'll see that none of them look as absurd as the eoshd.com video)

Furthermore, the tests he presents in his review between the D800 and D4 aren't even in the same ballpark - completely different shots, subjects, locations, lighting, lenses, etc., etc.

Again, I don't know if this guy is new to putting together a comparison review, so I apologize for coming down so hard, but, seriously, do yourself a favor, and don't buy a camera based on that guy's review. I don't care if you hate all my reviews and disagree with everything I say, just don't base your purchasing decision on anything from that particular eoshd review.
 
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Geronimo said:
Alright, I've done and seen enough tests for myself and have decided - I'm going to run with the D4, and not the D800, as my new cinematography tool.

.......
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting this. Great stuff.

I am surprised at your comments about color reproduction and using in-camera sharpening. From the tests i did (D3s, D7k and D800) i felt that setting it to 0 always produced more pleasing image.
 
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