Next: 4K Recorder 30p/60p 10-12Bits 4:2:2, uncompressed, prores, H265 & PC 1.395-3K€

[Tony Hernandez]

Next: 4K Recorder 30p/60p 10-12Bits 4:2:2, uncompressed, prores, H265 & PC 1.395-3K€

With the permission of the Administrators, I think thats interesting for the community..

4 years back or so here on this forum our member Alex (GOODYES) presented SFV, a 1080p60 recorder, was too expensive to build and too much heavy and sized.
Now, 4 years later, we've done a 4K30p/60p in a small size (smaller than previoud), affordable (half), with more battery life (twice or more), and with all the floritures of our custom software we've been making for those 4 years (prores, h265, etc..)

Whats here, in my hands, a Cinemartin Next (proto), a 4K video recorder & computer, a portable palm size fully functional 64-Bit Industrial Intel based computer, at 185x180x40mm (will be 185x175x40), full of RAM, lightning fast (USB 3, SSD 6G integrated), full of Space (1TB), crazy simple to use, with a 7" (6.7") HD touch screen, decklink powered (yes, blackmagic), windows 8.1, internet (wifi and bluetooth) and a full customizable device, upgradeable, long life and with hundreds of apps out there .. with more that will come from us.

Just a recorder just a PC, but with full uncompressed (not raw, full AVI uncompressed) 4K & UHD 8-10 Bit for Next S & P, Motion JPEG, Prores, VP9 and H265.

We sent yesterday PR to some media, announing a price for the Next S & P from 2.295€ to 2.995€, being the more expensive featuring 1TB and 16GB DDR with HDMI & SDI inputs, and a software pack valued at 650€.. just a complete kit, but Im happy to know from today from Alex, that there will come 3 basic versions too, more cheaper, to try to let to know the people a better compare to current recorders, so I must say that Cinemartin Next S will be available at 1.395€, 1.695€ and 1.895€ with differences on software inside, capture inputs/outputs and DDR/SSD.


Link to press release: http://www.cinemartin.com/webmail/201502_Next_Announce__Testers.htm
Link to website: http://www.cinemartin.com/next/ (some areas under construction, only home and FAQ at this moment)
Yesterday hands-on video by Alex testing a prototype, showing uncompressed 4K recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_qUhecktyc

below photos are from today from proto 1B,


I hope you like it guys !

 

[ntouched]

Excellent work and much success to you and your team!

View attachment 98063

 

[KurtF]

I'll pass this info along to the Apertus group. They're looking for recorders that might be compatible with their Axiom 4K camera.

Apertus

 

[Samuel H]

Congrats on making what looks like a state-of-the-art product. That's no small feat!!

 

[Tony Hernandez]

Hello guys, more news for the 4K recorder, now I have on my hands the 2nd C protoype

Progress.. (display)
Yesterday we got the new display for Next (codename) P model, 570NITS, so with more brightness than, as for comparison, a standard labtop, an Asus S4 labtop is 228NIT, a Galaxy Note 3 (360NIT), Samsung Galaxy Note 4(468cd/m2) and IPhone 6 Plus (being the most brightness device with 574NIT), so extremely brightness
GOOD: Industrial production, means longevity, etc .. and super brightness for real outdoor use cases (570NIT), etc ..
CONS: Its cabling (currently under development) requires extremely difficult to made custom LVDS cabling, that cost almost the same as the display alone..




Progress.. (device)
Now I have Prototype #2C
Holes for 1/4 and 3/8 and M5 (USA and EU), this allow for armor your devices/cameras/rigs with Next 4K recorder
Reduction in size: 10mm less in height (yes, 1cm less than last prototype, you can compare with above photos)
New backcover (see in 4th photo), will allow users to upgrade the device just by simply replacing the backcover instead of all the chassis
Custom side (right side, video in/outs 1), as you can see in the photo overall look gets more pro





progress.. (battery & power consumtion)
Using labtop external batteries (from 70€ to 140€) we get from 1 hour and a half - one hour 45 minutes (idle mode) for a 20Ah to 3 hours and 15 minutes with a 24Ah, well both are different brands and this are firsts tests with 2C proto (now using the industrial 15W advertised 29W AVG consume). Batteries just have the same width or almost same height as the device as you can see on last photo


I hope you like it..

We are also working on the software main interface
Next proto with aforementioned display and probably first dev. of Live main interface in approx. 2 weeks

 

[Tony Hernandez]

Hey guys, Pre-production models are here.
Now we are developing the software..
Im very happy to say and annouce the following:

Monitor is superb, super brightness, matte - glossy (I mean no brightness like other displays that seems like mirrors everywhere), its almost 600Nit and gorgeous. Device is almost finished, following photos are from pre-production models.
There's a great notice for the top model, I cannot share it now, but what I can tell is that this device is able to record and give more quality features than any of the existing recorders, including Atomos Shogun and Convergent Design Gemini, yes, it have some features as for video recording that no other can deliver, yep very very great, very very fast (around 12 seconds to power on), and well, see the pics.

Note: This model will be a little more priced than the Shogun or Oddissey, but, when you know the features, .. you'll probably want to buy one.
For hte next 15-30 days, we will be developing the software for fullscreen record, playback and background transcoding
Then we will send the high end devices to a few people, some from this forum , for they to test, and if like it, give us a hands-on review video

I really really like it

 

[Tony Hernandez]

View attachment 99352

 

[nyvz]

Hmm so this is a small form factor (dual-core broadwell?) PC with a touchscreen and decklink studio 4k or extreme 4k 12g attached? How's the fan noise? Clearly decklink cards and that case have very small fans on them and usually small fans make the most noise...

It's a shame the computer chassis is so much larger than the screen. And it seems like that extra space on the front ought to be utilized for other things like quick access buttons or controls to operate the software more efficiently. I guess the size of the unit is really limited by the size of off-the-shelf decklink cards, eh? Will it be upgradeable? Seems like one of the main benefits of an SFF PC with a PCIe card attached would be that you could upgrade the components easily when the current ones become discontinued in a few years. Also I hope there is more holding those SDI connectors in place than the hole they slide into and pushing on them wont put a lot of strain on the fragile components inside.

 

[Tony Hernandez]

Hello Noah, we have spent several months to get the smallest size as possible, there is no more space available to reduce, now its 185x180x40mm, and shogun is 196x110x47
It is not possible to get on the same space of the display a computer too, with the hight speed necessary to drive video at 4K and .. some features still pending to announce, but as I told, will be better than the competence
It is a litle more heavy than Shogun, yes it is more heavy. Will be not upgradeable, or at your own risk, inside there are no street typical computer shop components, this is a industrial device, with custom components (except 2). Its CPU only consumes 15W, with an average of 29W at 12V
Noise ?, few on hight end model, noticeable on basic model (pending to fix to get as on higher model) check the folllowing video, it show device, noise, display, sizes .. taken by my colleague Alex

This is not just get a mobo, put a cpu and get some of the hotest device running with no support, no, this is a device enginereed by us, with several designns and redesigs, with industrial components as by agreements made by us with custom electronic providers, well who does not use it ? (even blackmagic have compoenents say from Analog Devices, Atomos or CD from Xilinx or similar, ..) well but thats another history

Only the base boar6d cost to us more than 600€, but there are more..

Do you do not like to have a computer and a recorder in a palm size ? with better specs than Shogun - Oddisey ?

 

[S.Blanchardon]

Do you do not like to have a computer and a recorder in a palm size ? with better specs than Shogun - Oddisey ?

With all respect due to the hard work you put making this product, I don't think you can say it's a challenger to the Odyssey or the Shogun.

The form factor, the fact that's it's running Windows 8.1 (without any GUI layer on top of it), the noise from the fans, the DIY aspect (OK, I'll take this one back and wait to see the production model but for the moment it doesn't look nice at all to me)...

I don't say it's bad but it just doesn't appeal to me.

Also, I suppose you won't propose to record the FS RAW stream from the FS700 and FS7, up to 60fps in 4K and 240fps in 2K am I right ? Nor propose to encoded it in ProRes on the fly either ?

EDIT : re-read your initial post and you will only be able to record uncompressed on it... so it's definitely a no-go for me. Also, from what I understood, you can only record to internal memory too.

Had this device being born a few years back it would have been a great success.

Again, congratulations for putting this all together and good luck to find customers to buy it.

Cheers.

 

[Tony Hernandez]

Its not internal memory where it records to, its a integrated hard drive, so you dont need to buy drives for record, you record onto internal drive, faster than others as drive, then you can backup to other drives via usb 3 or you can edit in the same device, so why the need for ext drives ? theres really no need.
It does not have prores live, but after record in realtime, all done sutomatically, so you will no notice about.
And we like uncompressed, its true cinema, and neither shogun or odissey does not have (they have only uncomp raw). So, with this device, you record at maximum quality, then you get withiut your interaction, the deliveries you like, say sll proreses, h265, etc..
Atomos and Oddisey dont have 240 or 60 for 4k, ours not also, but ours supports 4:4:4 too.
Diffeences betw prores hq or 4444 and uncompressed are not as much as expected, say from 1gb to 4gb.
And with 1tb you have plenty full of space, so you dont need to worry sbout uncompressed if you dont wsnt as of now as 10 seconds after you record a 10 seconds clip, you have the prores, but you dont need to wait for.
Thats the power of this machine, forvtoday and for tomorrow, for studio or for DCI

 

[S.Blanchardon]

Hi Tony,
A few things a disagree with you :

Its not internal memory where it records to, its a integrated hard drive, so you dont need to buy drives for record, you record onto internal drive, faster than others as drive, then you can backup to other drives via usb 3 or you can edit in the same device, so why the need for ext drives ? theres really no need.

But then, you need to take the recorder from the camera, bring it to your backup or DIT station to do your transfer and so you can't use it in the meanwhile right ?
If you use, let's say M.2 internal flash drives then yes, it's incredibly fast, but raiding SSD's does the job too.
I think it's better to use removable drives so you can swap them and not be forced to wait for the transfer to end to use the recorder again.
And what if the drive just dies out ? You need to stop everything to open the machine and replace it ? I see a design flaw here.

And we like uncompressed, its true cinema, and neither shogun or odissey does not have (they have only uncomp raw). So, with this device, you record at maximum quality, then you get withiut your interaction, the deliveries you like, say sll proreses, h265, etc..

Again, I disagree. For me, RAW is true cinema, or true "naked" file direct after the sensor. Anything post-debayering even if uncompressed is already a compromission. And someone correct me if I'm wrong but you can also record uncompressed .DPX files on the Odyssey 7Q.

Atomos and Oddisey dont have 240 or 60 for 4k, ours not also, but ours supports 4:4:4 too.

Sorry but you are (partially) wrong here, the Odyssey 7Q can record 240fps 2K RAW and 60fps 4K RAW on the FS700 and FS7 and record the 4K 120fps RAW bursts from the FS700.

Diffeences betw prores hq or 4444 and uncompressed are not as much as expected, say from 1gb to 4gb.
And with 1tb you have plenty full of space, so you dont need to worry sbout uncompressed if you dont wsnt as of now as 10 seconds after you record a 10 seconds clip, you have the prores, but you dont need to wait for.
Thats the power of this machine, forvtoday and for tomorrow, for studio or for DCI

I understand you here and your machine has a few strong points, but it will be "limited" by being compatible only with cameras outputting uncompressed video.

In my opinion, not being able to record FS RAW and/or ARRIRAW is a big limitation and puts you behind both Odyssey 7Q and Atomos Shogun.

Cheers.

 

[nyvz]

Yes it does seem a big omission to not have any raw recording capabilities... Most of the most popular cameras produce the best images in raw recorded to an external recorder. Maybe there is a way to support raw over SDI? I guess it's limited by the decklink software capabilities...

I think most people will be turned off to a portable Windows 8 capture computer unless the gui is really well thought out and the software is something really special. One realm where such a device will succeed is in supporting many codecs that are not so easy to implement and license on specialized hardware such as cineform or h265 and many others. It does seem like a big mistake to not have removable media storage and require all offloading to be done from the recorder itself. No one wants to tie up their recorder on set doing media backups!

 

[Tony Hernandez]

Ye, but you didnt notice that you have 1 terabyte of capacity, one TB is 1000GB so you can spend one full day recording and you even have free space so you dont need to stop and pause a few minutes to backup, and again, a few minutes, as usb ssd speed arr about 500MBps.
Cinemartin device, as based on decklink, support DPX and mjpeg live direct recording too.

So, no need for removable drives being having 1tb internally, and for smaller capacity version, youll spend a few seconds more waiting for backup compared to change the drive, really, with the 500GB drive you can spend also 1 day recording, then backup entire drive, so in 10 minutes you backup 250gb, and youll do one time per day if so.

Cinemartin devices can also be used for other video purposes such as a live stream streaming device, also as a edit, color correction, .. hey you can edit on location, grade, etc, just simply attach a keyboard mouse and one or more displays.

This is a swiss knife, you can also feed signal from 444 sources and record at 444 ..

With all the capabilities of a computer too: edit, send media via internet to youtube or to a server,

It can be used as a server for let say your friend or assistant be able to check instantlyvwhat you recorded say from the other side of the world, .. yes and thats easy.. as it support wifi host, so once you get plugged to a internet you can serve as a host for others to connect or retrieve videos from say one of your folders..


there are much more possibilities

 

[nyvz]

But if I wanted a computer I could just buy one for much much less that does much much more...

I guess conceivably the lack of removable storage could be remedied by plugging in a USB3 Flash drive and recording to that... could be handy for having cheap media to hand off directly to client if necessary.

What panel is used for the display? Is it IPS? OLED? 1080p?

What CPU is it? I assume one of those 15W TDP dualcore broadwell CPUs? Seems like it might struggle to playback a lot of 4k compressed formats with such a low power processor?

Does it accept a wide input voltage range?

It always seemed to me that this kind of recorder could be great if it is done for a lower end market where people want to own equipment that has a lot of features for little money and don't mind a learning curve or a little extra work and maintenance for their owned equipment. In the price range mentioned, I think most people will be turned off by it seeming like an unstable DIY device compared to a 7Q or a shogun. While I don't mind the idea of a windows pc capture device with touchscreen input it really needs to have a very solid touchscreen-oriented GUI, but many people in this industry are mac-centric and afraid of windows and have low regard for its stability and useability and that will turn them off to this product, especially at a price above the competition. Cinedeck had a similar product back a few years but they had a pretty solid GUI and more custom hardware and design that made it work well and feel more like a recording device than a computer but still it didn't seem like it was super popular (probably partly due to the price).

I don't even know what camera you'd want to buy this for if it doesnt support the various proprietary RAW (Arriraw, C500 RAW, Sony FS RAW, etc) formats...

Are there any popular cameras with 4k 6G-SDI output?

 

[Mitch Gross]

The Odyssey7Q & Odyssey7Q+ can record 12-bit and HD Uncompressed 4:4:4 DPX files in 2K and HD.

I think it would be helpful to note actual recording times the 1TB internal memory allows in the different formats you support, rather than stating "all day." For instance, 2K 12-bit DPX at 24p lasts 71 minutes on the Odyssey7Q.

 

[Tony Hernandez]

Hi Mitch, thank you for join the party.
As you know, apples to apples, Cinemartin consumes same space for same codec / format / res.. what I mean is that Cinemartin comes with 1TB, and currently Convergent Devices does not have 1 TB option, well except by using 2x500GB. I will post some more detailed numbers later, but, as I said, yes, you can spend almost all day recording.. just give me some moments .. I will record 1 minute of 4K at prores 422LT to show numbers.

 

[Tony Hernandez]

Hi nyvz
Panel is IPS, HD. CPU is 4th or 5th generation depending on model, it is able to record and playback 4K, just give us some moments to record 1 minute of 4K 24P via HDMI to show you in a video.
Yes, it accepts different voltage input from 12V to 24V.
We know about cinedeck, we started 4 or 5 years back with a project like the current, but were bigger, heavier and expensive (google for Cinemartin SFV)

Cinemartin Next supports almost any camcorder that outputs SDI or HDMI signal.
We finally are able to record from HDMI
So it is compatible and we have tested with: A7S, X1000, GH4, FZ1000
Not tested but it is compatible with almost other pro cameras: Sony FS700, FS7, etc ..
Having 6G-SDI does not mean for the cameras to need to have 6G-SDI, all the current cameras have SDI, HD-SDI,. 3G-SDI, etc .. and this connections <-- are supported, resume, all SDI up to 6G, and all HDMI up to 1.4B

 

[Tony Hernandez]

The Odyssey7Q & Odyssey7Q+ can record 12-bit and HD Uncompressed 4:4:4 DPX files in 2K and HD.
I think it would be helpful to note actual recording times the 1TB internal memory allows in the different formats you support, rather than stating "all day." For instance, 2K 12-bit DPX at 24p lasts 71 minutes on the Odyssey7Q.

Ok, Alex just recorded a clip using the NEXT pre-produciton model, using the Panasonic FZ1000 via HDMI, at 4K UHD 25P
Recorded 20 seconds in 422 8bit (as this camera outputs 8bit) in 4K25P true uncompressed (no need to post color processing, so less time with almost same color possibilities as RAW as its a uncompressed file), ok numbers

Uncompressed : 9 GB
Prores 422 LT: 1GB

This translated to 1 minute 4K25P 422 is

Uncompressed: 25-27GB
Prores 422 LT: 3GB

So, using a Cinemartin Next recorder (counting 900GB free) you can record and have up to 270 Minutes in 4K25P 8Bit 422 Prores LT.
I think that this translated to 10 bit will be around 200 minutes.
So between 4 and 5 hour of recorded media can be stored on the Cinemartin device at Prores 422LT at 4K25P.

It can also record at DPX in 4K

So while as you state, Odyssey lasts 71 minutes (you didnt mention in how many space or GB) for 2K 12Bit, NEXT can record at 4K uncompressed, 4K DPX, and 4K Prores up to 300 minutes* (*24P)

 

[Tony Hernandez]

Video (Im uploading to youtube)