Newbie looking for great audio in living room atmosphere

J

Jan1

New member
Hi everybody!

I'm planning to make some video podcasts in the weeks to come. I'm a self-employed trainer and basically want to tell my audience bits & pieces about my work ...

Since it's going to be an ongoing thing, renting pros to do the job might just not be the most cost-effective thing to do. Filming myself on my iPhone and then uploading the results - which is exactly what some colleagues do - is not the quality I expect to deliver, neither.

My video equipment consists of a Rebel t2i and a Panasonic videocam. I've got Premiere Pro running along with Plural Eyes which will allow for some nice effects. What I want to film is basically: Me, speaking, not moving around. Either in my living room, or in my office room - which is about the size of a living room. Standard reflective walls, the office has got a hard floor surface.

Now: I've spent the past few days reading A LOT OF forum posts all over the internet considering indoor video audio. And what I've read goes contrary to what three different pro shops for audio equipment over here in Germany told me: They told me to always get a shotgun mic for indoor filming when I want to film one person speaking, and ideally mount it overhead on a stationary mic holder (one that's big enough to allow for upside down mounting ...). I've asked them about hyper cardioids and they told me: No.

Now: I've ordered a NTG-2 and an AT 4053b for testing purposes, along with a Rode Pinmic, a Sennheiser Freeport wireless system, and a Tascam DR-100 recorder.

The Pinmic and the Freeport wireless are meant to be used for lectures, seminars etc. where the person speaking moves around in front of an audience. I really like the Pinmic and the combination seems to be just great for the money!

The NTG-2 on the other heand is TERRIBLE on the Tascam DR-100. Gain set to high, I still have to crank up the amp to almost max to get some decent sound. Loads of noise, quite obviously. And: My voice sounds rather hollow and shallow.

The AT 4053b, mounted upside down about 30 inches away from my head, sounds very good, though! But - here's the problem: Budget. The AT 4053b goes for 830 $ over here in Germany. No kidding! And ordering it from the US isn't really an alternative since they want excruciating amounts of taxes, so I'll have to get it over here.

Now, here's an alternative I'm looking into: The AKG C93 with the SE 300B module. Cost is "only" 485$. So the AT 4053b would cost me 70% more than the AKG93/SE300B combo!

Unfortunately, I haven't found any real comparisons between the AKG and the AT so far.

To recap my situation: Absolute newbie (so don't expect perfect handling ;) ), mostly filming on my own (so no boompole, but a stationary mic holder - which shouldn't be a problem since I won't be moving a lot when speaking), on a budget and on a mission to get really good sound from an indoor environment - mostly a smallish living room.

My voice is rather "dark" and bassy..... -ish, so a mic that's good on the base side and gives a warm, full body would be A+++.

Any recommendations? I've read the forum upside down and back again, but maybe somebody has to throw in his or her two cents just for better measure .... looking forward to any input and any help!

Jan
 
A typical pro-audio shop likely doesn't know that much about audio for video, they're usually focused on live sound for bands and events. Audio for video is a different world entirely.

More often than not, a shotgun isn't the best idea inside. A hypercardioid is much better, though with a fixed stand, I'd maybe go with a supercardioid to get a little more room to move.

The closer you can get the mic to the source the better. If you don't need to have it 30" away to keep it out of the shot, get it closer!

A good mixer or preamp will also help you get more clean gain than a cheap recorder will give you.
 
I'm not sure why the "pro" audio dealers told you to avoid hypercardioids indoors, though my guess is that they are focused and more knowledgeable on the live and studio recording sides of things, and not audio for video. In a reflective room like your office, the hyper - or a hard-wired lav - will be your best bet. With the hypercardioid, 30" is way too far. You need to get the mic within 12" for best results, and since this is a locked shot without any movement you should be able to frame that just right.

The AKG hypercardioid should do you fine, by the way. The NTG-2 has a noted low output that struggles with the weaker pre-amps of many hand-held recorders. The Audio-Technica 875 has a better output level for that, though there are certainly better shotguns (read: more $$$) out there. The other solution is better pre-amps, such as a Sound Devices MixPre (or soon-to-be-released MixPre-D), or other small mixer.

For what you are doing, though, a shotgun may not be necessary. I'd run the hypercardioid on a boom stand overhead to one record channel, and use the hard-wired lav to the other channel. You'll pick one or the other when you edit, but it gives you options and you'll figure out quickly which you prefer.

As for the Sennheiser Freeport... forget it. There's nothing under $500USD that's worth looking at, so expect that unit to fail on you often. Have you read the Audio 101 sticky? It has some good links to mic comparisons and some helpful information on wireless systems.

Regarding the acoustics of your office: you should probably look at taming the reflections a bit. This doesn't have to be terribly expensive, but it will make a world of difference. An area rug will have a huge impact (it really ties the room together), and some type of diffusion/absorption on the walls will be greatly helpful. Auralex makes some very affordable kits for minimal treatment. One of the biggest challenges you'll have is with bass frequencies, especially if there's nothing to obstruct/break up the corners of the room. Corners enhance bass frequencies and can make your sound incredibly rumbly and muddy. Bass traps are essential to smoothing out the room.
 
a shotgun isn't the best idea inside. A hypercardioid is much better, though with a fixed stand, I'd maybe go with a supercardioid to get a little more room to move.
Click to expand...

+1, This is so true, Shotgun mics indoors can cause a hollow, thin, reverbish, kind of result. It doesn't mean it cant be done, but to do so and get decent audio, you will need to modify the space. You can do this simply by hanging some blankets, or foam insulation, Piece of carpet, ect... Pretty much anything that will absorb the soundwaves as opposed to bouncing them. For what your doing, I would go with a wireless system. If you add Magic lantern to your cam you can kill the auto gain and get audio levels. This way you can record directly into cam, and save time on the sync. Although seeing is you have already bought the gear, my suggestion would be to do some testing, you have covered most options for your budget.
 
Alex H. said:
I'm not sure why the "pro" audio dealers told you to avoid hypercardioids indoors, though my guess is that they are focused and more knowledgeable on the live and studio recording sides of things, and not audio for video. In a reflective room like your office, the hyper - or a hard-wired lav - will be your best bet. With the hypercardioid, 30" is way too far. You need to get the mic within 12" for best results, and since this is a locked shot without any movement you should be able to frame that just right.

The AKG hypercardioid should do you fine, by the way. The NTG-2 has a noted low output that struggles with the weaker pre-amps of many hand-held recorders. The Audio-Technica 875 has a better output level for that, though there are certainly better shotguns (read: more $$$) out there. The other solution is better pre-amps, such as a Sound Devices MixPre (or soon-to-be-released MixPre-D), or other small mixer.

For what you are doing, though, a shotgun may not be necessary. I'd run the hypercardioid on a boom stand overhead to one record channel, and use the hard-wired lav to the other channel. You'll pick one or the other when you edit, but it gives you options and you'll figure out quickly which you prefer.

As for the Sennheiser Freeport... forget it. There's nothing under $500USD that's worth looking at, so expect that unit to fail on you often. Have you read the Audio 101 sticky? It has some good links to mic comparisons and some helpful information on wireless systems.

Regarding the acoustics of your office: you should probably look at taming the reflections a bit. This doesn't have to be terribly expensive, but it will make a world of difference. An area rug will have a huge impact (it really ties the room together), and some type of diffusion/absorption on the walls will be greatly helpful. Auralex makes some very affordable kits for minimal treatment. One of the biggest challenges you'll have is with bass frequencies, especially if there's nothing to obstruct/break up the corners of the room. Corners enhance bass frequencies and can make your sound incredibly rumbly and muddy. Bass traps are essential to smoothing out the room.
Click to expand...

haha, I was writing as you were. Except your post is written elegantly. mine, not so much:)
 
Just out of curiosity, would a headworn mic be acceptable to be seen in your training videos? Are other folks in your industry using them in their videos?
 
To elaborate a bit on room acoustics...

Yes you want to tame the reflections in any room. A rug of some kind helps, and basically what you want to eliminate is 2 hard, parallel surfaces (wall to wall, or floor to ceiling). This results in sound bouncing back and forth between the two for extended lengths of time, commonly called ringing or flutter echo. Easiest thing is checker boarding acoustical panels in the room (such that opposite any panel is bare wall). Don't just cover every surface in the room, otherwise the room because too "dead" and awkward, 50% of all walls is usually a good goal. Just keep the panels spread out evenly around the room, and usually nothing below 3' is needed.

1" foam is worthless, 2" is minimum, and works well. 3-4" is better. If you're not playing back music in the room, honestly you don't really need bass traps. You can also boost the efficiency of acoustical panels by spacing them off the wall at a distance equal to their thickness.
 
Hey guys,

THANKS SO MUCH for the many helpful answers! Dvxuser.com seems to be a great place to be ... it's not common for a newbie anywhere to receive that much helpful input, so thumbs up to all of you here :-) .

What I've noted mentally so far is:

1) Use a hypercardioid and get it as close as possible
2) Use some padding / sound insulation for the room - improvise.
3) Forget shotguns for what I want to do!
4) Check whether or not Freeport is any reliable (this is NOT for my own videos, BTW, but for filming parts of our training seminars; since there'll always be a second mic running, I'll give the Freeport a try and dump it if it proves to be unreliable; it sure is a budget solution for the time being); read the Audio101 sticky for suggestions on wireless systems

To your questions / further comments:

Headset: Actually, some colleagues do just that - but I'd rather not. It's OK for live seminars and such, but for my videos, I'd like to keep all the technical stuff out of the pic.

Magic Lantern? Up 'n running ... ;) . I do expect to get better audio running the mics via XLR into the Tascam, though. Plural Eyes seems to be working quite elegantly so far.

By the way, the reason I don't want to do my videos using a lav is that I expect to get much better, fuller audio out of the hypercardioids. If I take my ZOOM H2 recorder and put it very close to my mouth - that's about the quality I'd like ;). Can't put a mic that near my mouth in a video though, so this is why I'm playing (and asking) around a bit - in order to find a really good sounding solution. Using a lav sounds OK-ish, but not really all that good.
 
maranfilms said:
If you add Magic lantern to your cam you can kill the auto gain and get audio levels. This way you can record directly into cam, and save time on the sync. Although seeing is you have already bought the gear, my suggestion would be to do some testing, you have covered most options for your budget.
Click to expand...

I will try this: Get the mics into the Tascam, and the use the minijack output from the Tascam into the Canon. I do expect to get slightly more noise, but I'll do a comparison in order to see whether it's noticeable at all one it's coded into the format I'll be using for uploading the vids ... This would be a time saver.
 
Hi there!

I just got my stationary mic stand and did some testing with the AT 4053b and Tascam DR-100 combo. Wow - really good results! Just what I'm looking for. If the AT 4053b just wasn't so expensive over here ... I hope the AKG CK93 comes close in regards to quality. Then I'd be good for solo speaking as well as for filming training seminars. There's only one more situation I'm not covered for yet: Two people having a conversation, either sitting across from each other at a table - or next to each other on a sofa. Now: I guess the hypercardioid won't be the ideal solution for this. I could get a second lav ... but maybe you guys have a better suggestion?
 
Jan1 said:
Hey guys,

THANKS SO MUCH for the many helpful answers! Dvxuser.com seems to be a great place to be ... it's not common for a newbie anywhere to receive that much helpful input, so thumbs up to all of you here :-) .
Click to expand...

You have found one of the best sites on the web to help you find information from some very experienced people. The common theme I have found here of helping "newbies" used to be very rare indeed. One word of advice is to take the knowledge you gain and see what works for you and your needs. With all the new and relatively low price equipment flooding the market these days it is important, repeat it is important to realize the basics have not changed since the introduction of sound and color. Good Composition, Lighting, and Sound will make good content great. They will very rarely make bad content good.

Good Luck and don't forget to share your experiences with the community at large.
 
Jan1 said:
I will try this: Get the mics into the Tascam, and the use the minijack output from the Tascam into the Canon. I do expect to get slightly more noise, but I'll do a comparison in order to see whether it's noticeable at all one it's coded into the format I'll be using for uploading the vids ... This would be a time saver.
Click to expand...

Be sure that you get a padded cable. The 1/8" out on the TASCAM is line-level, but the 1/8" in on the camera is mic-level.

Jan1 said:
There's only one more situation I'm not covered for yet: Two people having a conversation, either sitting across from each other at a table - or next to each other on a sofa. Now: I guess the hypercardioid won't be the ideal solution for this. I could get a second lav ... but maybe you guys have a better suggestion?
Click to expand...

If they're sitting close enough together, the hypercardioid can cover both. Even so, it's better to have a boom op to work the mic. Just the slightest tilt to favor whomever is speaking from moment to moment can make a world of difference. Honestly, your best education on that is going to be a test. Set it up, see what it can and cannot do as a single mic that's in a locked position.
 
Jan1 said:
Hi there!

I just got my stationary mic stand and did some testing with the AT 4053b and Tascam DR-100 combo. Wow - really good results! Just what I'm looking for. If the AT 4053b just wasn't so expensive over here .... There's only one more situation I'm not covered for yet: Two people having a conversation, either sitting across from each other at a table - or next to each other on a sofa. Now: I guess the hypercardioid won't be the ideal solution for this. I could get a second lav ... but maybe you guys have a better suggestion?
Click to expand...

AT 4053b is meant to capture just one voice as clearly as possible, while 1 or more voices equally loud (or even louder) are nearby. So, using a single AT 4053b to capture 2 separate voices talking at the same time is... tricky, even with a boom op helping you... because you'll have to keep a greater distance just to have one such mic cover those 2 voices at the same time.

It's a very directional mic. Usually, just by listening to my AT 4053b, I can typically tell if the speaker has just turned his head or moved away from the mic more than an inch or two. Also, 30" is too distant to my liking. Surely, I'm able to get the voice (or voices) recorded in that or even greater distance, because the mic is very sensitive. But if the mic is closer to the voice (not voices at the same time, if you want it to be really close), the quality will go up a lot higher, allowing you to take full advantage of this great mic.

BTW, I'm curious: do you have to use a hyper mic? Since you are not recording in a noisy or uncontrolled environment, is it possible for you to switch to a cardioid small diaphragm condenser mic or a decent large diaphragm mic? Hang such a mic from above, and then have one or two people (including yourself) talk to the camera while facing the mic... would the setup work to you? That way, you wouldn't have to pay a premium price on AT 4053b or use a single hyper to cover 2 voices. Here, I think, is one such mic for less than half of the price of AT4053b: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/752512-REG/Blue_YETI_PRO_Yeti_Pro_USB.html. Be sure to watch its demo video. Note: IIRC its price probably went up by $20 recently. If you don't like it, there are many such mics: cheaper than AT4053b but may meet your needs equally well.
 
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