Newbie Audio Questions

J

jay3000

New member
Hey Guys! I've finally took the plunge and become a member of the forum. There's some awesome advice here, so thanks for all your help. I'm just getting into recording audio and I plan on doing video interviews in my studio. I have a couple of questions regarding audio that maybe you can answer. Okay, here goes:

1. This one is a bit long winded as I'm not sure how to word it. So, I followed the general rule and recorded my audio (Tascam DR100 and AT875R - 48Khz/24bit) just below peak levels and I'm satisfied with the overall quality of the sound (nice and clear, no noise). However, when I put the audio on my computer (iMac 27" i7) in Final Cut Pro, the audio levels reach between -6 and -12db (which I read is pretty good) but the volume on my computer is around 6 or 7 little squares (Mac users know what I mean). It sounds good, but not at a level I'm satisfied with. So I guess my question is, in post do I need to adjust anything so the sound is at a moderate listening level? I'm confused because, say for instance, if I view video clips on YouTube, my computer's volume is the same but the audio is nice and loud. Am I doing something wrong? How do you preview audio in post to make sure it's at a decent level?

2. Can anyone recommend a great shock mount that can be mounted on a mic stand? I'm currently using the Audio Technica AT8415 and I feel it's a little loose due to the design. Do I really need a shockmount? My setup is pretty static.

That's all I have for now. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
 
Check your audio input section control on your computer-- it's been so long since I've worked on a Mac; I know it's there, but on a PC with Windows, you go to "Start," "Control Panel," "Sound/Speech/Audio Devices," "Sounds & Audio Devices," and finally click "Advanced." You get a little mixer that lets you adjust various volumes. Make sure your Wave volume is up as high as your Master volume. I know you can do basically the same thing on a Mac, probably with far fewer steps, I just can't remember how right now...

There is a setting somewhere in FCP to add plug-ins like compression, limiting, etc. to your audio tracks. You can also draw in "envelopes," which are basically graphic representations of where you want the volume, which then automates the track to raise and lower according to your envelope. Again, I'm not a big whiz on FCP and haven't used it in years, as we are working with Vegas software, but maybe one of the FCP gurus here can tell you how to get it done. I'm sure there is something like that in there though.

A shockmount is recommended for any shotgun or any type of condenser or ribbon microphone, but not absolutely necessary if you are mounting on a microphone stand that isn't going to move at all. If someone is booming the shot with a boom-pole or handling it in any way, a shockmount is essential. The AT looks fine, but there are many different versions available on the web and at music stores like GC. From a few dollars to very expensive.

As all of the film guys here will tell you (I'm really only a very part-time video guy, but I do a lot of studio production in the music/audio area), a shotgun isn't necessarily the best choice for indoor work. You may want to look at other microphone choices like hyper/supercardioids or cardioids, or some small lavs (lavaliers) for your on-camera talent.

GJ
 
Actually I've worked on a Mac for, well a long time and I don't know what you mean by "little squares". I'm going to assume it's a level display someplace but?

However in general your first problem is your listening setup. Your not a sound guy so I'm not going to tell you you need to drop $3K on speakers, but you do need to get something you can roughly calibrate so you can make some kind of evaluation that is consistent.

The way to properly do it is with a meter and some pink noise but you can ballpark it (and really consistency is more important than level in a lot of ways). So either go down to Radio Shack and pick up an analog SPL meter OR rough it in as follows.

With FCS you can probably generate some pink noise. Generate some at -20 dB. In a calibrated room that should play really loud, as in you need to shout to be heard. So play the pink, have your system volume all the way up and adjust whatever you are powering the speakers with so that it's about as loud as above. This is VERY ball park but if you do that every time at least you will be close to a constant listening level. Once that is set IF you need to monitor at a lower level use the system setting to lower the level and leave the amp settings alone. That way you can just bring the system back full and your "calibrated".

As to your specific issue. FCP's meters are bogus. I can't remember exactly what the issue is but it's something like they are set to read zero a non standard reference point. There was a lot of discussion about this on various FCP forums. If I remember correctly it's not that they are not accurate but that they are not based on a scale anybody else uses. It's one of Apples "make it simple for my grandmother" moves that drives pro's up the wall. The lesson is that meters don't tell you much unless you know what they are calibrated to and where they are looking.

Which brings us to the YouTube stuff. I'm not sure what your little blocks are but if it's the eye candy in QuickTime player then that just tells you you have some signal and roughly where it is volume wise. But then how are you comparing levels from online streaming to ones inside FCP? If they are not on the same signal path and you are using different meters it's apples and oranges.

The thing that might be significant is the apparent volume difference. But again you need to get the same fruit. So IF you have downloaded a video from YouTube AND you have put it into the FCP time line and it plays back at a big difference THEN you have something to work on.

I suspect part of the issue is that the different signal paths (streaming VS FCP) are part of the difference. But a lot of what's up on YouTube is done by folks who don't have a clue and have spent way too much time with earbuds blowing out their hearing. Those videos are "mastered" like they were pop tunes and have been compressed to hell and gone and are maximized to peak just below digital zero.

IF YouTube is where you are aiming you films for then you may want to head that way also. If your aiming at film festivals and such you should probably aim more toward film practice. Which is a lot more dynamic and not nearly as loud or compressed.

You can always in post crank up your level and slap a limiter on your master.

I generally mix that way. I do a theatrical mix, then since most stuff is aimed at smaller screens I will put a mastering limiter on the master track and push the levels up for a hotter video mix. You could keep going and probably get in to the YouTube zone.

As a side note, you do generally want to push the top for YouTube. The sound is going to through heavy data compression and you want to have more going in so that you can get something out that is OK coming out.
 
Hey,

Thanks guys for the replies. You've both cleared up quite a few things for me.

@Gregg - Didn't realize a shotgun wouldn't be appropriate for indoor recording. Beginner mistake!:laugh: I'll be picking up the AT4053b as a replacement. I saw Chadfish's comparison videos and it sounds like just the mic I need.

@Noiz2 - Sorry for the confusion. The little squares I'm referring to are when you press the volume key on your keyboard and the volume display pops up on screen. It's displayed in small white squares below a speaker icon. I have to crank the volume up high to really hear my audio clearly from the iMac's internal speaker. However, that isn't the case when I have on headphones. So maybe I need a good set of external speakers (a future purchase)? Or just continue using headphones? I'm also going to try out the test you recommended.

Jay
 
I've yet to hear a PC's internal speakers that could be used for anything at all. Stick with the headphones until you can get some external speakers.
 
We use a shotgun for indoor work all the time, in fact almost exclusively. Lavs are OK for interview work and are sometimes used on narrative films, but not really all that often in my experience. The point of a shotgun is to isolate the dialogue with it's very narrow pattern. In a perfect world you dialogue track should have as little environmental or other sounds on it as possible.
 
gonzo_entertainment said:
We use a shotgun for indoor work all the time, in fact almost exclusively. Lavs are OK for interview work and are sometimes used on narrative films, but not really all that often in my experience. The point of a shotgun is to isolate the dialogue with it's very narrow pattern. In a perfect world you dialogue track should have as little environmental or other sounds on it as possible.
Click to expand...

Depending on the shotgun and the indoor environment, it might be OK or it could sound really bad. If you look at the stickies there are detailed explanations of exactly why that is the case with many interiors and most shotguns.

As a rule though you won't find an experienced sound person using a shotgun on an interior set very often. You get the isolation by getting your mic in close and aimed correctly. If you can do that on the exterior it would be a good choice there also but as a rule exterior shots tend to be wider and a lot harder to boom in close.

But part of why I keep saying "as a rule" is because no two situations are exactly the same. Depending on what you do and where just about any mic might be your usual go to. All the "don't use a shotgun indoors" "rules" are based on the majority of experience, not on some hard rule that is always true.
 
jay3000 said:
@Noiz2 - Sorry for the confusion. The little squares I'm referring to are when you press the volume key on your keyboard and the volume display pops up on screen. It's displayed in small white squares below a speaker icon. I have to crank the volume up high to really hear my audio clearly from the iMac's internal speaker. However, that isn't the case when I have on headphones. So maybe I need a good set of external speakers (a future purchase)? Or just continue using headphones? I'm also going to try out the test you recommended.

Jay
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The "very rough calibration" mode works for headphones also. It's actually why I came up with it. As a way to roughly be at a "calibrated" level while having to work on headphones. It helps if you know what calibrated pink sounds like but it will still get you in the ballpark.

I will second the don't bother with the computer speakers. As not great as mixing on headphones is it is still miles ahed of using the built in speakers.
 
Hmmm... I'll pick my audio guys brain about it and see what his reasoning is. He certainly owns ribbon mics, cartiods, hypercartiods, but he always booms with the shotgun.
 
All "shotgun" mics are NOT created equal. There is more than one type of "shotgun" microphone, and some microphones of other varieties (supercardioids, etc.) may physically resemble a "shotgun" mic. Since gonzo apparently doesn't know what kind of mic (make and model) he is referring to, nor did he describe these indoor venues or the working parameters like distance, etc, we don't have any useful frame of reference to relate to.

The microphones we most commonly refer to as "shotgun" depend on the angle of incidence to discriminate between the desired SIGNAL (the dialog) and the NOISE (the ambient sounds). When the sound (both the desired SIGNAL and the undesirable NOISE) are reflected from nearby surfaces, they enter the microphone at un-natural angles. That means that the NOISE will not be properly cancelled because it isn't completely identified as NOISE. And worse, some of the desired SIGNAL will be cancelled because it is being reflected into the microphone from un-natural angles and being improperly identified as NOISE.

To be sure, MOST directional microphones work on this angle-of-incidence principle, but the length of typical shotguns that is used to enhance this directional characteristic also makes them much more sensitive to un-natural reflections. THAT is why the general recommendation is that a hyper-cardioid will be a better choice on a boom for interior use where is is assumed you have nearby reflections.

Of course, there are exceptions to any rule. If you are in a very anechoic interior space with thick carpet, heavy drapes, overstuffed furniture, etc, or a large space where the walls and ceiling are very far away, then there will be few significant early reflections, and a shotgun will perform as expected. Conversely,if you are outdoors in the desert or in the deep woods where there are no natural reflections, there may be some close artificial reflections, as from lighting equipment, etc. It is ultimately the presence of early reflections that determine how well a "shotgun" mic will perform. This is often reduced to the cliche of never using a shotgun indoors. In physics, you can "break" SOME rules if you understand how the rules work.
 
He uses a Rode NTG-3 (with some intent to upgrade that in the near future). On an interior we generally boom from 18" to 24" from the talent (a situation could occur where he was as much as 36", but that would be very rare). In most cases if the room wasn't carpeted we would place rugs on the floor (unless it was in frame for some reason) and sometimes (in a very large echo filled room) hang sound blankets.

It could well be that he just doesn't have that great a hypercartiod so he hesitates to use it. Not sure.
 
gonzo_entertainment said:
He uses a Rode NTG-3 (with some intent to upgrade that in the near future). On an interior we generally boom from 18" to 24" from the talent (a situation could occur where he was as much as 36", but that would be very rare). In most cases if the room wasn't carpeted we would place rugs on the floor (unless it was in frame for some reason) and sometimes (in a very large echo filled room) hang sound blankets.

It could well be that he just doesn't have that great a hypercartiod so he hesitates to use it. Not sure.
Click to expand...
If your able to successfully kill the short-term reflections then a 'gun should be okay. The admonition not to use a 'gun indoors is based on the typical run-and-gun or doco film situation where you often find yourself iin lively rooms where there's nothing much you can do about the space acoustics.
 
That makes sense. Don't do any run and gun doc stuff, purely narrative (with a few music videos and commercials thrown in there). We do audio tests (just as we do camera tests) during pre-production at all the locations so we know exactly what we're dealing with before we shoot.

I'm a writer/director. I know just enough about cameras to annoy my DP and just enough about audio to exasperate my sound guy.
 
I'd get at least some sort of descent, reasonably priced speakers. However, if it's just so you can hear and you are passing this off to a sound editor to do proper sound editorial on, then headphones are fine. The internal speakers on any computer are worthless. The "little squares" are in no way a good reference of level. You need proper meters to know what you are actually getting in terms of levels.
 
DrDave said:
Never use headphones for mixing, record in 24 bit :)
Click to expand...

You left off the *. The * would be unless the alternative is computer speakers and if your recorder can do 24 bit **.

The ** would be you REALY want to be using speakers and 24 bit is nice but not huge.
 
gonzo_entertainment said:
...
We do audio tests (just as we do camera tests) during pre-production at all the locations so we know exactly what we're dealing with before we shoot.
...
Click to expand...

OK I want to work with you guys!

I can't tell you how rare it is to have even fairly experienced directors do ANY kind of sound check out of a space before they role.
A+, with a gold star
 
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