NEWB question(s)

D

danielisaiah

Active member
I'm a LA based music producer/ recording and mixing engineer who is looknig to get into Music videos and slowly learn the craft of motion pictures. I have previous photography knowledge to apply....so Camrea's dont scare me.

I've got a decent Pro-tools setup (digi003 and Pt LE 7.3cs2) and a mackie VLZ mixer.....and TONS of mics that I have used over the years for Bands/ demos. some nice...some crap. I also have access to really nice GT tube pre-amps.

I was thinking of using my protools setup and mixer for sound.....I have it all racked up for the most part and my rack has casters so its pretty "mobile". I know music videos for the most part don't require location sound since the music is pre-recorded....but we have 1 dialogue sequence

I'm shooting with a HVX200 (2 16gb P2's, brevis 35, Nikon primes, some lights....)

here are my questions:

1) Can I use my PT recording setup and Mics for sound?? I think I should be able to....I think this is a higher end setup than most others I have read about.

2) And heres the NEWB question: I have no idea how to Sync the sound to picture. Does the HVX200 generate timecode? I'll admit, I have never used any NLE software so maybe I just need to see it to grasp it. Is there an easy resource read someone can point me too???

This maybe should be posted in the HVX forums as well.....but I thought I'd try it here first.

Thanks for any replies in advance!

Dan
 
danielisaiah said:
And heres the NEWB question: I have no idea how to Sync the sound to picture. Does the HVX200 generate timecode? I'll admit, I have never used any NLE software so maybe I just need to see it to grasp it. Is there an easy resource read someone can point me too???
Click to expand...

Use a slate and use the clapping sound that it makes as a sync point for audio recorded on camera and external audio. Have someone yell out the takes or write it on the slate so you know take it is. On my last project I completely forgot to do this and my sound editor had to stay up for three days straight syncing all the sound manually. Fun :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)!
 
1) You should be able to use your mics but depending on what you are doing you might be doing the equivalent of pounding a nail with a wrench.

2) Syncing sound to an external recorder can be done with TC or a audio/visual sync point: slate.

For music videos ideally you will want a recording of the production track with TC to be played on set. Send the TC to the HVX audio channel to be converted into TC in your NLE (Avid or FCP). You can then edit the video like a multi-cam shoot; easily switching between different takes on the same point in the song.

You can also use a slate to match your video to playback but then you have to line up each take via waveform with your production track. Doable but much more time consuming.

The issue with the HVX is that while it does generate it's own TC, it can neither import or export TC, except to other HVX's.

Cheers
 
wabbit said:
1)
For music videos ideally you will want a recording of the production track with TC to be played on set. Send the TC to the HVX audio channel to be converted into TC in your NLE (Avid or FCP). You can then edit the video like a multi-cam shoot; easily switching between different takes on the same point in the song.

The issue with the HVX is that while it does generate it's own TC, it can neither import or export TC, except to other HVX's.
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the replies guys....

Wabbit: little confused about those two things you mentioned. one seems to contradict the other....maybe I'm reading them wrong? So if I can't import TC to the HVX, how to send my audio track with TC to the audio channel on the HVX?

I think i'm starting to see the picture a little clearer...so bare will my 2 inch think skull thickness.

Dan
 
Can you go straight to the HVX from your mixer? If so just set the HVX to line and record onto the HVX along with your image, seems simplest solution to me if doabl.
 
I guess that was unclear. What Allen said; you send the TC signal from the TC out of your audio recorder straight into audio channel 2 on your camera (set level around -10dbfs). The NLE can then take the channel 2 signal and decode it to an aux TC. It is a "work-around" to the lack of TC in/out on prosumer cameras. To date I don't believe the cheaper NLEs have this feature but Avid and to my understanding FCP do.

Good luck
 
jade8472 said:
Use a slate and use the clapping sound that it makes as a sync point for audio recorded on camera and external audio. Have someone yell out the takes or write it on the slate so you know take it is. On my last project I completely forgot to do this and my sound editor had to stay up for three days straight syncing all the sound manually. Fun :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)!
Click to expand...


Haha! Yup, your sound editor had lots of fun time in the apartment. I bet he forgot to mention about it on set too! haha... Totally a lesson not to forgot again and again.

Well, I wasn't syncing sound for those nights, it was half syncing and half editing all the dialogue with temp tracks, BG noise and such. Turned out great!
 
This is a workflow issue I'm right in the middle of grappling with right now.

It's a little unclear to me thus far (after considerable research) as to whether an NLE (actually, FCP specifically, because that's all I have) can or can't read time code *that is recorded as an audio stream* into a sound file. Programs I know better in regard to this, like Pro Tools, can definitely read time code *embedded in the file's source code as application-specific TC* like a BWAV or SDII file, but have no way of reading (directly, within the application itself, involving no external hardware) from an audio track that contains *an audio recording of a TC stream*.

Can FCP do this? It sure could be helpful!

To reiterate the workflow question, is this possible:

1) Record TC on the set *as audio only* on an HVX track, from an external generator which is not otherwise referenced to any other device.

2) Import the clip into FCP and tell FCP to place the audio track in the timeline according to that *audio* time code.

As I'm typing this, it occurs to me that it would still not get me anywhere because the TC generated by the external device on the set (recorded onto the HVX as audio) would not have any relationship to the HVX's internally generated TC. There's no way to get the two TC streams to match initially, so what would the purpose later on be?

Currently, I'm working on a setup where the external device (in my case a MOTU 828MkII and a G4 laptop) will later read and chase-lock to the HVX audio TC track (which it generated on the set as it recorded the audio), enabling me to re-lay the audio in real time, in perfect sync, back into FCP (via Soundtrack Pro, which can record up to 6 track at once, unlike FCP which can only record one), while feeding the HVX's audio TC back to the 828's TC input. It's a bit of a kludge, but it seems it will work fine once I vet it thoroughly.

To clarify, here's that setup:

1) On the set, record TC generated from 828 TC out to HVX audio in while simultaneously recording the scene's audio on the 828.

2) In post, send the footage from FCP to Soundtrack Pro.

3) In STP, feed the HVX TC audio to the 828, and lock the DAW (in this case, Digital Performer) to it.

4) Route up to 6 channels of audio from the 828 to Sountrack's inputs (via another audio interface, in my case a MOTU 2408 MKII)

5) Play the STP file and record the set audio into it. It would match perfectly since we're reading the same code that was generated on the set.

6) Send it back to FCP.

Snarky stuff all this, huh?
 
Last edited:
A little more on the topic:

Miranda makes a DV to Analog converter box that evidently will convert and output audio TC from a DV stream:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...DVBRIDGEPRO_DV_BRIDGE_Pro_Bi_directional.html

It would seem that with this ($1850) device you could lock any audio TC sync-able external audio recorder to an HVX on the set and record your sound in perfect sync. Assuming the audio recorder supports the .BWAV file format, you could easily re-sync the files in post in FCP (or Avid or Pro Tools) using the .BWAV's embedded TC information. In effect, this is the equivalent of the HVX having an LTC output.

So it would be a one-step process - import the recorder's BWAVs, tell the NLE to move them to their embedded TC's position, and you're done.

The box is pricy to be sure, but it does many other things as well. See the tech specs and a block diagram here:

http://www.dynamix.ca/doc/DV-BridgePro.pdf
 
Ted Spencer said:
Snarky stuff all this, huh?
Click to expand...

Thanks again for all the replies. Ted: man that sounds complicated. So what all this means (and i'm referring to other posts as well) is that TC sync is a pain in the bum an no one makes an elegant solution in regards to using the HVX. that being said, I think I have a better workaround if this question can be answered:

does FCP allow you to see the sound waveform recorded with the take?

If so , what I will do is insert a LOUD 8 count click in front of the start of the recorded audio track (I recorded the band...so I have the Audio session), and then make an audio CD and play that from a boom box on set.....

I will run a Mic from the HVX and place it in front (2-3 feet) of one of the speakers. this way, I can record the Audio with the clicks to the take. (i'll put the mic close because I dont want any delay etc....)

I'll record 5-6 different passes of the band rocking out for different looks.

Then what I will do is drop all the takes into FCP along with the master recording of the song(with the clicks on it) and line them up via those 8 Clicks on the audio tracks. when all looks good I'll Lop off the clicks and insert the dialouge shot which will the intro to the song .

so in theory, everything should line up to the 8 count intro and I can drag /drop my takes in to the main time line.

So its kind of like slating, only I am using the 8 count in clicks as a the guide for the rest of all the takes....

So does this make any sense? I'm basicly doing what I do with all my bands I record.....play to a click track...now I'm just appying it to film....er....P2

let me know what you guys think.

dan
 
Alan H. Chang said:
Haha! Yup, your sound editor had lots of fun time in the apartment. I bet he forgot to mention about it on set too! haha... Totally a lesson not to forgot again and again.

Well, I wasn't syncing sound for those nights, it was half syncing and half editing all the dialogue with temp tracks, BG noise and such. Turned out great!
Click to expand...

That's why I'm budgeting for a slate for the next project, lol:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG).
 
danielisaiah said:
Thanks again for all the replies. Ted: man that sounds complicated. So what all this means (and i'm referring to other posts as well) is that TC sync is a pain in the bum an no one makes an elegant solution in regards to using the HVX. that being said, I think I have a better workaround if this question can be answered:

does FCP allow you to see the sound waveform recorded with the take?

If so , what I will do is insert a LOUD 8 count click in front of the start of the recorded audio track (I recorded the band...so I have the Audio session), and then make an audio CD and play that from a boom box on set.....

I will run a Mic from the HVX and place it in front (2-3 feet) of one of the speakers. this way, I can record the Audio with the clicks to the take. (i'll put the mic close because I dont want any delay etc....)

I'll record 5-6 different passes of the band rocking out for different looks.

Then what I will do is drop all the takes into FCP along with the master recording of the song(with the clicks on it) and line them up via those 8 Clicks on the audio tracks. when all looks good I'll Lop off the clicks and insert the dialouge shot which will the intro to the song .

so in theory, everything should line up to the 8 count intro and I can drag /drop my takes in to the main time line.

So its kind of like slating, only I am using the 8 count in clicks as a the guide for the rest of all the takes....

So does this make any sense? I'm basicly doing what I do with all my bands I record.....play to a click track...now I'm just appying it to film....er....P2

let me know what you guys think.

dan
Click to expand...

The only issue you might encounter there is some drift of sync over the length of the song, which you could probably cure by slipping picture edits accordingly. The on-set playback is likely to differ slightly over time from the music file import to FCP. Otherwise, I think what you're suggesting should work adequately. And thankfully, audio-to-picture sync is a lot less hyper-critical than audio-to-audio sync is, so you'll be able to get away with a little slop anyway.
 
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