FS7: new to FS7, comparing custom mode vs sLOG3 LC709A

broughtonfilm said:
Doug, how about creating a scene file for CUSTOM mode which simulates the LC709A look? I know it would be using a narrower gamut in CUSTOM as a starting point but how close can you get ?
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Interesting idea, but it would be bit of dilemma for me because I don't really care for the look of the LC709A LUT. So much so that I won't even use it in post as a starting point for grading. I know I am in the minority of not liking that LUT, but it would be an interesting challenge to see if I can match it -- or take it to a little higher level with the custom mode. Now if I just had the time to spare. I'm pretty much booked solid from next week until the end of November but I'll see what I can do.
 
The problem with 709Type A is that the blacks are elevated and the white clip is low especially at EI 1000 and lower, so its flat. However just extending it to 0 and 109% using LUTCalc makes a very pretty image and I do think that overexposed highlights look much more pleasing and natural than they do in CUSTOM.
 
What about the magenta fringe around light sources that shows up in Custom mode? Has anyone found which paint option is causing that?

I shot the moon a few nights ago, and noted a bright magenta ring around it, which vanished upon switching to Cine EI mode.

I've seen this fringe on sunset shots that were in postings where someone was observing this artifact. One person said it was caused by S-Log3 S-gamut, but I observed it in plain old custom mode. There is definitely something odd about how this mode processes color. I stick with Cine EI because it avoids all these issues and seems to produce cleaner images.
 
Resolve allows luts usage in ACES together with idt's and odt's. I've never created a lut but my first one is going to map 709 D60 gamma to P3 D60. So lutted I will monitor and scope with 709 but write P3. The rgb primaries for P3 are aligned with 709/sRGB and Sgamut3.cine covers the P3 gamut. ACES odt (output device transform) includes P3 D60 PQ (1000;2000;4000 nits). This is the perceptual quantizer adopted by smpte as bt2084, the electro optical transfer function. With that odt is a triad of key performance, 4k resolution, WCG and HDR. If anyone is interested in a discussion about that, can start a separate thread.
 
Uuh it seems I opened Pandora's box :-)

My initial question aimed to a ready to edit setting. No question that slog3 plus postproduction will get great results but in 70% there is no time for extensive post and it won't be paid either. I realized that the blacks in lc709a are a little bit washed out but this is easy to fix and gives a little headroom too. What I like very much is skin tone in LC709a and at my first try I could not get these skin tone in custom mode.
 
here's my image sample. I modified AC's matrix settings slightly. Can you spot CineEI LC709A, CineEI ImpulZ Slog3 Vision3 50D 5203 and the custom Hypergamma7? All shots are tweaked with saturation and curves in FCPX Color Finale. The effort in custom was less than in the CineEI shots. I am very impressed how flexible all files are.

2015-10-04_custom-vs-CineEI.jpg
 
Clermond, I'd guess the second image was LC709A? The third HG7? Hard to tell for sure, but that is the beauty of 10bit!


What I want is a workflow that works like this: In certain situations where I don't know where the footage will end up, I want to record S-Gamut3.Cine/S-Log3 and deliver the client the camera original footage AND a "Pre-Grade" they can just use or tweak to their liking. This way I can record footage that gets all I can get out of the FS7 and make life as easy as I can for my clients.

Would it be just as simple as adding the Sony S-Log 3 LUT in FCPX and export? This could have the added benefit for the client to receive ProRes files instead of camera original saving them transcoding time.


Who can describe their workflow of the easiest/fastest way to accomplish what I've outlined above? (I have a fast, custom made late model iMac and FCPX.)

Thanks.
 
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I thought that too, but how do you know the lift in the red gamma wasn't deliberate as to try and "trick" those guessing?

I mean surely that red could have been tweaked out in grading. :shocked:
 
gkantziper said:
Clermond, I'd guess the second image was LC709A? The third HG7? Hard to tell for sure, but that is the beauty of 10bit!


What I want is a workflow that works like this: In certain situations where I don't know where the footage will end up, I want to record S-Gamut3.Cine/S-Log3 and deliver the client the camera original footage AND a "Pre-Grade" they can just use or tweak to their liking. This way I can record footage that gets all I can get out of the FS7 and make life as easy as I can for my clients.

Would it be just as simple as adding the Sony S-Log 3 LUT in FCPX and export? This could have the added benefit for the client to receive ProRes files instead of camera original saving them transcoding time.


Who can describe their workflow of the easiest/fastest way to accomplish what I've outlined above? (I have a fast, custom made late model iMac and FCPX.)

Thanks.
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Why not bake in a LUT which is effectively a pre-grade then do a batch transcode in Compressor to ProRes?

There's no way to do a batch export of single clips from FCPX Timeline (that I know of) other than one by one. If you don't mind doing that you can create a grading preset with e.g. Color Finale which contains your chosen LUT. Simply drag the clip to the timeline, add the grading preset and Share.
 
Clermond said:
1.)Custom HG7
2.)LC709A
3.)CineEI ImpulZ

Im am sure it's possible to get them very very close
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You could've used the red vector and sent the reds more orange in the LC709A and there wouldn't have been a fag paper between the shots.
 
I think the LC709A looks slightly better, mainly the highlights on the face are somewhat pulled back.

That too can be done in the grade, so it'd be MORE interesting to me to see the frames "straight out of camera" with only the LUT applied on the slog shot and then directly compared.

For me anyway.
 
Very similar to the results I found when i posted stills a few weeks ago though this is a better test. In the right circumstances Custom can look fine and when challenged viewers often get it wrong. I actually prefer the punchier contrast (though the red is pretty saturated) and that's an easy fix in post to punch up the Slog. IN some situations though the lower contrast Slog would be a godsend - no windows or other highlights in this shot.
What changes did you make to Alister's settings? I want to try this one out for Custom as the flesh tones are very nice.
 
Coming from 20yrs in still photo advertising I don't have that much experience than most of you guys here in this forum. I am still learning and the step from fs700 /7Q was not only a step in hardware upgrade it also took my acquisition of knowledge to the next level. Let me thank you for sharing your experience and your knowledge base, it's a great benefit for me.

Shooting custom is useful for me in many ways. Wysiwyg, waveform monitor, individual white balance, higher ISO, noise reduction..makes my shooting more comfortable. Also I don't have clients who ask and pay for a log postproduction. From my experience up to now it's not only adding a LUT in post, at least the WB needs correction in most of all shots.

Hopefully there will be some improvements in next fw updates. I did some tests with CineEI with my Marshall LCD050-HDMI and this set up drove me nuts.
- LUT on HDMI works only with SDI2.
- Zebra works on HDMI even with LUT ON.
- slog3 and LUT OFF in viewfinder disables vaveform if HDMI is attached.

I am pretty happy with the custom scene file for the moment but I will practice with CineEI to feel more secure for upcoming shootings. PM me if you want the scene file to give it a try
 
Lenilenapi said:
What changes did you make to Alister's settings? I want to try this one out for Custom as the flesh tones are very nice.
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I am happy that you like it! In general I lowered most of his matrix changes. I will supply a link for the scene file tomorrow.
 
Baking in a LUT is the opposite of what I want to do. I want to almost always record LOG to get all the information from the sensor and have that to work with in post. From my experience, at minimum, it has been easy to take the LOG footage and just add the LUT and, violà, beautiful footage.
 
gkantziper said:
Baking in a LUT is the opposite of what I want to do. I want to almost always record LOG to get all the information from the sensor and have that to work with in post. From my experience, at minimum, it has been easy to take the LOG footage and just add the LUT and, violà, beautiful footage.
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I doubt anyone would argue the above.. the problem is as a freelance you are handing over a HDD .. if its a decent big budget shoot you can safely presume they will do a good job of the grade.. if not .. then you might as well burn in the LUT you like... (if thats all they are going to do anyway) .. to avoid the Log footage being made into a dogs dinner.. with your name on it..

For those that do post on their own footage.. well of course you can do what you want.. as long as your director/producers agree with you :cheesy:
 
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