FS7: New Sony F7 XDCAM 4K Super 35mm Camcorder

morgan_moore said:
Well not really because the FS7 is a camera better conceived than the F5 for the solo op - it has fixed a bunch of stuff that is wrong with the F5.. so the choice is not so simple.
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I dont think the intent of the F5/F55 was to stress that it was a solo operator camera. It can be if you can define what and how you will shoot before closing your carrying cases. Being a modular camera, it can do many things. If you want it to do all things, then you need to carry all the gear with you. The FS-7 is an ENG style all-in-one camera that is well suited for multi-purpose / single operator use. Lighter than the F5/F55, more ergonomic than the C300, lots of auto settings for the R&G style or scenario. It is separating itself from the pack by being an upscale S35 eng camera. I'd say that once you get a Vocas baseplate on it, pack a spare lens or two inside a back pack and grab your sticks are you are good to go. Along with this, I think the ROI will be very quick, a major plus for a S35 camera. I think a fair comparison for the FS-7 would be Sony's other ENG type cameras. How close does it keep up with or surpass the other ENG type cameras. Apart from the sensor, this is an ENG camera in my mind. It crosses over into the "cinema sandbox" with lens options and recording quality as well. And while many S35 owners (F3, FS-100, FS700, F-5, F55 etc) will be comparing how this new camera fares with what they are using now, I wonder how many in Sony's ENG camp have been waiting for this type of opportunity to augment what they are using. I bet many more in the ENG crowd will be new FS-7 owners versus the S35 owners. This will be interesting to look back on next year and see what sort of camp the FS-7 has created. Did not intend on babbling on and on, just my two cents.
 
steve phillipps said:
I'm not so sure about that - I think it will have very broad uptake - why would news shooters need 4k, 35mm sensor, slow motion, log gammas and high bit rate codecs?

Steve
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Well the need for 4k is not what the FS-7 is all about, just as many S35 owners currently only need 4k when requested. The S35 sensor though is something that gives anyone shooting for news the capability to produce feature/sweeps stories that will out shine the competition stations in their market. It will allow marketing departments the ability to promote their weather, news and web products. Many news and marketing departments share like equipment. Marketing departments will be able to ask for a good camera finally instead of having to always use the ti2 for shooting promotional pieces. High bit rates are an option, you can set the camera up just like the other ENG type cameras and decide based on purpose, what codec or bit rate to use. For general news gathering, the catch would be whether the lens system can be operated just like the pro-sumer or pro camcorders they currently use. This is the big catch, as many of those cameras usually have integrated 20x G lenses or something similar. Throw that kinda of all purpose glass on the FS-7 and there will be lots of interest. For the most part, the promotion/marketing departments will probably be the first ones requesting it. Market size will also play a part in whether the FS-7 is even on the bargaining table when it comes to replacing any existing kits. I think that if Sony had an HD only version of this camera, at a lower price point, it would open up more sales opportunity. Sometimes the price tag alone will be the factor of even being considered for purchase. Who knows, maybe it's more of a wish for me that news departments should use nice gear with nice options for when they need them.
 
That's pretty much agreeing with what I said - it'll be use to a huge range of people and projects. It looks like it has enormous flexibility in ergonomics and shooting parameters, from highly-compressed to RAW, on the should to fully rigged Hollywood style!
Steve
 
I doubt that the FS7 will be brought in on higher budget commercial shoots when there are a few other options that are hotter. And I think that it's hard to compete with the ENG 2/3 cameras due to them being standard for so long. But I do think the FS7 will be a very good option for all solo guys and girls that shoots a mixture of low to middle budget productions. It will also be a popular tool for independent film-makers.

There's really nothing technical that limits the FS7 but if I were a producer for a high end production I would look at a known DP shooting Alexa. Same thing if I were the head of a news team I would choose experienced ENG shooters with a tool I knew would suit the task very well. As for ENG I see the lack of a long range fast lens to be the biggest issue.
 
Bill Gilbride said:
Well the need for 4k is not what the FS-7 is all about, just as many S35 owners currently only need 4k when requested. The S35 sensor though is something that gives anyone shooting for news the capability to produce feature/sweeps stories that will out shine the competition stations in their market. It will allow marketing departments the ability to promote their weather, news and web products. Many news and marketing departments share like equipment. Marketing departments will be able to ask for a good camera finally instead of having to always use the ti2 for shooting promotional pieces. High bit rates are an option, you can set the camera up just like the other ENG type cameras and decide based on purpose, what codec or bit rate to use. For general news gathering, the catch would be whether the lens system can be operated just like the pro-sumer or pro camcorders they currently use. This is the big catch, as many of those cameras usually have integrated 20x G lenses or something similar. Throw that kinda of all purpose glass on the FS-7 and there will be lots of interest. For the most part, the promotion/marketing departments will probably be the first ones requesting it. Market size will also play a part in whether the FS-7 is even on the bargaining table when it comes to replacing any existing kits. I think that if Sony had an HD only version of this camera, at a lower price point, it would open up more sales opportunity. Sometimes the price tag alone will be the factor of even being considered for purchase. Who knows, maybe it's more of a wish for me that news departments should use nice gear with nice options for when they need them.
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If the original statement had been "The FS7 will appeal to ENG Operators making the move to S35" I wouldn't have any disagreement, but the notion that the FS7 will replace 2/3 ENG bodies in the news business is patently ridiculous. News will be slow to go to 4k in general, and the optical properties of S35 make for a poor news camera. I'll agree that it will make Promos and Marketing department pieces shine, but Spot News demands the properties of ENG zoom lenses, with thier long zooms and fast apertures. Spot news also demands the highest quality picture in low light conditions. You can't be covering a factory fire and have to be switching out lenses, or have the glass be too slow to suddenly chase the suspected arsonist down an alleyway. Not to mention, S35 with it's razor thin focal depth (particularly when running wide open) makes it harder to keep focus on elements and people you don't control, and the nature of your job prohibits you from staging. S35 is far better suited to jobs where the visuals are staged or semi staged.
 
steve phillipps said:
That's pretty much agreeing with what I said - it'll be use to a huge range of people and projects. It looks like it has enormous flexibility in ergonomics and shooting parameters, from highly-compressed to RAW, on the should to fully rigged Hollywood style!
Steve
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*off topic....

Steve, I mean this in the most endearing way...I have a relative who does this too. It cracks me up that you sign each post. A fellow in my family does to that on every text he sends. Just a funny character thing that I imagine goes back to hand writing letters. Curious if you have a reason or if its just habitual.

*back on topic...FS7 is definitely still on my list. Just dying to know know what Canon has under the hood. I almost want to wait to purchase the FS7 just to satisfy my curiosity.
 
ReelWorksMedia said:
It cracks me up that you sign each post. A fellow in my family does to that on every text he sends.
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For texts, unless they are signed, you'll only know who they're from if you've got the senders number and name stored in your address book, won't you? I've had texts with just a number displayed as "from" and it hasn't been obvious from the message who they are from. So unless you're pretty certain they've got your number stored, I'd give that as a reason for signing them.......

Anyway, back on to topic.......

I think this camera will sell well. It may not be perfect, but really, at the price..... Go for a large sensor camera and you're likely to need quite some investment in lenses and accessories, so IMHO it's a mistake to cut corners on the basic camera price. This leaves the likes of the FS100, AF100, C100 standing - both in terms of usability and quality - whilst being nowhere near the price of the likes of an F5 etc.
 
steve phillipps said:
Hmmmm....dunno really, just seems the friendly thing to do! :) Maybe I'm from the pre-internet forum age and not fully up on the protocols!

Steve
...you've given me a complex about it now!
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Definitely don't have a complex. I absolutely meant that observation in the friendliest way possible. A close family member of mine does the same thing and its definitely a cool character trait. I often think about some of the traditionally polite methods of writing has been lost in the age of instant communication. I think its refreshing.

Part of me thinks there is a story line in there. ...possibly a script dealing with the amazing ability to communicate with one another instantly...and also the lost art form of "real" human communication. Sorry...damn...now I'm brainstorming.

Gotta grab on of the FS7s when they are available and shoot a character piece.
 
I know lots of news shooters who are using cameras like the F5 and F55. In fact, the Newsshooters themselves (as in the website), Dan Chung and Matt Allard, both use Super-35 sensor cameras for their work every day. And there are plenty of others. Not all "news" work is spot news, with a reporter live on the scene. In fact, most of it isn't. The vast majority of it isn't. There is plenty of work where the form factor of an FS7 or an F5/F55 would be very useful.

Sony is not stupid. The biggest advances and most models have been coming in the S35 sensor arena. Sony clearly sees the future as 4K yet has not released a 4K 2/3" camera. They are selling a LOT of product in the S35 sensor market. There is a lot of use for these cameras.
 
Viddovation said:
If the original statement had been "The FS7 will appeal to ENG Operators making the move to S35" I wouldn't have any disagreement, but the notion that the FS7 will replace 2/3 ENG bodies in the news business is patently ridiculous. News will be slow to go to 4k in general, and the optical properties of S35 make for a poor news camera. I'll agree that it will make Promos and Marketing department pieces shine, but Spot News demands the properties of ENG zoom lenses, with thier long zooms and fast apertures. Spot news also demands the highest quality picture in low light conditions. You can't be covering a factory fire and have to be switching out lenses, or have the glass be too slow to suddenly chase the suspected arsonist down an alleyway. Not to mention, S35 with it's razor thin focal depth (particularly when running wide open) makes it harder to keep focus on elements and people you don't control, and the nature of your job prohibits you from staging. S35 is far better suited to jobs where the visuals are staged or semi staged.
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Like I said, one big hurdle is IF this was to have broader news use appeal, the lens would need to be addressed. But with the FS-7 having more than one foot in the ENG camp with all the "auto" settings, it would only require some of these auto settings to make it possible to turn the camera on auto, and just shoot. Choose aperture or shutter priority and there you go. There are a lot of 2/3" cameras being replaced by palmcorders these days. Spot news does not require an expensive 2/3" camera where the lenses themselves cost more than the FS-7. My hope is that the FS-7 can be used for spot news AND serve to handle planned interviews and events. Even now, if there were a fire story or a night time shoot, photogs have to set their cameras up for the situation. While they don't have to swap lenses if they are using palmcorders or 2/3" cameras, they still need to take the time to set the camera up for each shooting scenario IF they don't want the camera making AUTO decisions for them. No photog is going to run after anyone until they know the camera is setup proper, be it the FS-7 or a 2/3" camera or a palmcorder. While big markets may have the luxury of keeping the 2/3" camera alive, there are many more smaller markets that add up to more sales for the smaller cameras that are not 2/3" based. Sony has the choice of either capitalizing on the S35 design and make it news friendly, or go for something like a S16 format camera with the same approach to make the camera/lens package not so DOF specific. The technology Sony already has invested in the smaller cameras using the G lenses is pretty incredible. 20 Times magnification in such a small package. I'd be interested to know if something like this can be achieved with the FS-7. I will add that the biggest issue with Sony's G lenses is that the lenses lack a constant aperture thru the zoom range. This itself has garnered many bad reviews for the cameras using the G lens system. I guess with using auto iris it is not a major issue, but it does show one limitation of the lens system. The package FS-7 with the 28-135 F4 lens may attempt to answer this, it creates another problem by losing the "standard" magnification that 2/3" camera ops are use to and demand.
 
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ReelWorksMedia said:
Part of me thinks there is a story line in there. ...possibly a script dealing with the amazing ability to communicate with one another instantly...and also the lost art form of "real" human communication. Sorry...damn...now I'm brainstorming.
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Don't you film-makers EVER switch off???!!!! :grin:#

Steve
 
Mitch Gross said:
I know lots of news shooters who are using cameras like the F5 and F55. In fact, the Newsshooters themselves (as in the website), Dan Chung and Matt Allard, both use Super-35 sensor cameras for their work every day. And there are plenty of others. Not all "news" work is spot news, with a reporter live on the scene.
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I was really jumping on the suggestions of "ENG" users - as in Electronic News Gathering - which is generally on the shoulder, breaking news stories.

Steve
 
I also agree to disagree with Mitch. It is in my opinion a gross exaggeration to think Super 35 is making headway into news. 4k in news? Where? I am at scrums weekly and if anyone is shooting 4k I don't see them. I see what we used to call the "print" photogs shooting video with their 5Ds or with a consumer tripod and Canon handycam. But everyone else is shooting with traditional 2/3" shoulder or 1/2" Sony and Panasonic ENG cams of various vintage. During the NHL Stanley Cup playoffs NY vs MTL series there was not one Super 35 among the dozens of American network and local cameras in the scrums at the Bell Center. I am one of the few with a new camera (PMW 300) the others half inch are mostly EX1 or 3 or PMW 320s.
Just the bandwidth issue ($$$$$$$$) is enough to scare most broadcast execs away. They want 35Mbps and with many of us using Dejero units for live hits less bandwidth is better from their point of view. When I get booked by US brokers they want 720p!
Sure when you get a chance to do a "long form" news/doc piece for news, one where you actually get to light with more than an on camera instrument and have more that's couple of hours....perhaps but it's still gonna get crunched on output. I own a first generation FS100, I love it and use it and my NEX 7 for my "other stuff" but have only taken it to a scrum once and that was because my client was speaking and it was not for news. Though it woul seem to be heresy to mention it here, I will be keeping my eye on the Ursa closely as a camera with a switchable sensor makes sense for my workload and would make great use of my existing lenses etc.
My two cents even though we don't have cents in Canada anymore.
 
There's only one thing missing from making this camera into a good ENG-style camera - a long range lens. Something as a J20 and until there's something similar for S35 2/3 cameras will be king.
 
Osslund said:
There's only one thing missing from making this camera into a good ENG-style camera - a long range lens. Something as a J20 and until there's something similar for S35 2/3 cameras will be king.
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Hence the kit 28-135mm lens - obviously not a J20 but that zoom range will cover most on the shoulder stuff. Go wider, longer or more zoom range and you're talking mega bucks, mega size and image quality challenges.

Steve
 
The obvious way to get reach is enable a digital zoom aka centre portion of the 4k image to deliver 1080.

Personally a decent 17-xx is best and adding a 70-200 for sticks work is no big shakes.

But overall different cameras lend themselves to different shooting styles.

Consider shooting kids in a class room - with a heavy ENG cam Id park it on sticks in the corner and pop in on specific kids with the zoom range, with the FS7 Id shoot on the shoulder and actually move about using my feet to get close not a long lens..
 
A J20 might be impossible for S35 if it has to be fast as the same time, so I'd rather have a camera with something in between S35 and 2/3 with a good range lens to complement my S35 camera and choose one or the other for different needs.
 
Super 35 for news? Not right now. It might be used for major news broadcasts - CBS, NBC, etc., perhaps with the C300 - but the news market is still dominated by 2/3" and now, 1/3" cameras. My friend gets lots of work from the major networks with his F800. It's still a camera very much in demand. JVC's 600, 700 and 800 series are popular in the local news markets, as are Panasonic HPX cameras. One local station here has opted for 1/2" XDCAM Sonys. I see NX5s as well. And a lot of consumer cameras, unfortunately. You don't have to have a "broadcast" level codec for local TV news.

I've worked TV news enough to know that getting the shot is the most important thing. If it's at night and very grainy, it doesn't matter. Just as long as you have the shot to broadcast, and hopefully your rival stations don't. They're not interested in tight depth of field. In fact, that wold actually be a hindrance, especially with the amount of time many news shooters have behind a camera. When you're sent out the door at 9am and are expected to shoot, edit and then do a live remote shot for the Noon news, there isn't any time for finesse.

That's not to say the FS7 couldn't be used as an ENG camera - it most certainly can. It's cheap enough to catch the eye of local news stations. But for TV news, it's hard to beat the long zooms you can have with the smaller chip cameras. Plus, they're cheaper.

Let me add that today's news shooters might have a better background and understanding of depth of field. They might have used DSLRs in college and know how a lens works, at least compared to my older generation of shooters. Maybe they can convince the powers that be at their TV stations to invest in larger sensor cameras. Maybe the future of news will be FS7s and X70s. Interesting thought.

Or the stations will opt for cheaper and more automatic cameras for the new breed of Multi Media Journalists - one person news operations. Ugh.
 
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