FS7: New Sony F7 XDCAM 4K Super 35mm Camcorder

Mitch Gross said:
The task determines the tool, which determines your purchase. If you have the camera you want for addressing that task, then who cares what Sony releases next? If you do not yet have the tool you want and Sony announces another tool that does not fit the task, ignore it and soldier on. Otherwise who cares?
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Unfortunately, I can't afford a camera for every task. And rental is no option as there
are no rental houses within 1000 miles from me, and although it is possible to rent through
the mail, it is not a real option as Fed Ex won't honor their guarantees here. Talk about a
poor option, imagine getting your camera, the day after it is due back to the rental house,
you owe late fees, and you obviously missed your scheduled shoot. (Yup, this happened to me
and I will no longer rent.) So I am always making some compromises, no matter which cam I choose to own. If I could afford a F55 with a Cabrio 19-90 I think I'd be set.

In light of this, I see another option you missed. Sony introduces a new camera which has 'some'
improvements I need, but leaves out others. So it's not quite so cut and dried, and I get to try
to figure out if those improvements are worth 8 grand or if I should wait for a 'mythical future' camera, which would 'in theory' address even more of the improvements I want to see.

I have been told since I bought the FS100 not to expect a super 35 power zoom of any consequence
without it being heavy, and expensive like the Canon cinema zoom or the Cabrio. Then I see Sony
making this 28-135 and charging $2500 for it, so forgive me if I am a little skeptical of people telling
me it can't or won't be done. I'm not asking for a 18-200 F2.8 for $600. An 18-105 Ff4 that is
optically good without pillow distortion for $1200 might be ok. An 18-85 2.8 for a couple
thousand? I dunno, I do know that 28-135 would look nice on a FF video cam.
 
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Mitch Gross said:
I understand that, but the question one should ask is "What camera do I want?" There's a thread on DVXUSER lamenting that various equipmwnt conventions roll by and the person's ideal camera is never announced. However I feel about the choice of ideal camera, I totally respect that the guy has a target in mind.

A camera is a tool. One should buy the appropriate tool for the task at hand. Figure out what your task is to determine the appropriate tool's requirements. Then buy that tool or wait for such a tool to become available.

Anyone who thinks that Sony is going to come out with a handheld form factor camera similar to the FS7 but with a Full Frame 35 sensor is crazy. Those two design elements are counter operational to one another. The lenses necessary to take advantage of one aspect are limiting to the other. You will never get a full free zoom of any decent range with any kind of decent aperture that isn't physically huge and heavy. Can't have handheld/large sensor/long zoom range/decent aperture all as one. It defies the laws of physics. So since such a camera would likely be of rather limited use I sincerely doubt Sony would ever make it. But hey, what do I know?

But if you step back from the gear and ask yourself what kind of shooting do I wish to do, if you want handheld with a decent range zoom (particularly one that gets wide) and can shoot at a decent light level, then you're most likely describing a 2/3" shoulder mounted camera. If you want that in 4K then Hitachi get debuted one at IBC. BTW, notice how little attention it has received?

The task determines the tool, which determines your purchase. If you have the camera you want for addressing that task, then who cares what Sony releases next? If you do not yet have the tool you want and Sony announces another tool that does not fit the task, ignore it and soldier on. Otherwise who cares?
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What tool? Like many in video I started pretty much with the 5d2, To some extent the 5d2 matched with a 24-105 have a beautiful simplicity and practicality that seems to be kind of missed from the 'appropriate tools available' list. Well a 5dmk2 with resolution, ND and XLR and ideally a bit of over-cranking and a solid codec, SDI etc -

An 'FF7' could be that, the FS7 is close, possibly the closest ever.

To some extent your 'go 2/3' argument is valid - personally Ive always thought that an technically/theoretically an MFT cam with a grown up ($5k?) zoom lens could be the ideal combo for size/dof/big pixels - I agree that FF is theoretically 'too big' but..

Now 2/3 do have 'DigiPrimes' that are extremely fast and doubtless make 2/3 look pretty cinematic.. but Used Digiprimes are rare.. very nice manual used FF 28/2.8 or 50 1.8 can, however, be picked up for $100 - so the actual gap is way wider than the theoretical gap. So your technical argument stands in theory but falls over in financial reality. Again on glass pricing FF35 has had a clear lead over S35 and MFT - it must be said that glass like 16/2 ronkon or 12 SLRmagic have moved this over recent years, until a year ago getting wider than 20 on a 2.8 filterable lens was a costly mission for any larger format. BTW the stills staple of a 24-70 2.8 and a 70-200 is a managable solo load.

Also you fail to look at the solo op business which often drifts between pop vids, corporates and indy drama - so a multi too is needed. FF24-105 IS gives one a corporate lens and some battered primes add the feel for the pop and indy work.

Im very happy with the offerings, exited about the FS7, and also have been impressed with my recent forays with the BMC4k which sort of makes me question 'how much convenience do I need' the BMC is obviously lacking ND, XLR et al, but I have survived (on my drama project with a soundie and A/C) it has not been that inconvenient.

So you are right we all need to consider our needs before emptying our pockets... :)
 
morgan_moore said:
What tool? Like many in video I started pretty much with the 5d2, To some extent the 5d2 matched with a 24-105 have a beautiful simplicity and practicality that seems to be kind of missed from the 'appropriate tools available' list. Well a 5dmk2 with resolution, ND and XLR and ideally a bit of over-cranking and a solid codec, SDI etc -

An 'FF7' could be that, the FS7 is close, possibly the closest ever.
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Yeah, I agree. What you just described would be pretty amazing.....
 
So sony and VI gave a 'presentation' of the (preproduction) camera today in Pinewood UK.

I came away scratching my head.

Clunky firmware, wobbly handle, and lack of clarity of how the firmware will be did not contribute to 'love at first feel'

Firstly - this is a camera that will work for the solo operator.

The combo of well placed EVF, focus and roll at the finger and low mass make it the best solo op (s35) camera on the planet - certainly for those of too old and weak to lug an amera.

The focus check and OK Evf give one confidence of focus that one will not be able to move away from - any other camera without a control laden handgrip will feel very 2004 very quickly.

So it is kind of a world beater for solo S35 operation.

But some of the connectors feel a little cheap - its built to a price clearly and im not sure it wont fall apart after six months (connectors to EVF and grip). Clearly the EVF and Grip need to be secured by kit from a 3rd party (who makes an EVF which can be mounted with the horizon off - schoolboy error!)

This seems to lack the design finesse to make it truly brilliant and feels like a camera you will want to swap in for the FS8 or F6 or C400 in 2015/16.

Now here is a thing - 180fps - with the iphone6 having 240FPS - that is going to date fast! I think we must have slomo twice as fast as our directors phone, not slower but that is only a sort of philosophical winge again I assume the wifi App is rubbish too - but really have no idea as no-one did from sony either - Id want more wifi functions than the gopro app on a £5k camera!

Overall I feel that they took onboard moans of the F5 - mended them, put them in a FS100 plastic box.

This leaves one in a sticky situation - the F5 is so short of intelligent design for the solo op that it is un-purchasable - the FS7 is potentially so flimsy that it wont be trustable.

In conclusion Sony should have added £2k to the price and got it really right rather than building a 'wedding shooter/weekendshooter' toy camera that is better than the pro brother.. until it breaks.

Id pay £2k more for true design that favours the operator, not the corporate upgrade path (cache record?, 1080 digital zoom, solid connectors off centre focus check)

Sony seem in a hole, mainly due to the paucity of the F5 as a solo op cam - could they make a handgrip for that with focus check? (and audio ramping etc) - that would light my fire.

Edit/Addition.

I think/feel that Sony dont really appreciate the professional solo op (which is maybe why the C300 was such a hit) - Sony are compartmentalising their market - F5 'funded crew camera' - FS7 'solo op penny-less shooter camera' - and that fails to respect some market realities and operators who make a living in those markets - there is nothing wrong with shooting solo - it can be intimate, cool, creative and profitable. Solo should not be considered as a 'low status' activity.

S
 
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I think they will sort out the handle wobble (or we remove it and put it on a third party rig)

The EVF and Lanc connector cables - which are critical to operation of the camera - did not feel too good - but then the F5 is famous for its EVF connector too and this is better placed than that - I think they will stay that same

ONe would not expect pro lemos or suchlike at this price point.

That is my personal feel - Id like to have paid more and just had those little extra touches - the market may not agree with me and that is fair enough.

It is not a disater - it is still super cool for the solo op!

S
 
I am hoping the FS7 will fill a gap in our camera line-up. Currently we use two F3s for our monthly episodic productions,we film a lot of angling content for instructional use and delivery via online channels. So its a mix of actuality and controlled content. The F3s are usually on sticks / slider / crane but not handheld. These are the A and B cams ( I always like my a and B cams to be the same for ease of post) They are supplemented with a Sony NCX30E which is used for a faster moving response and to grab close-ups for cutaways and for poking in places the F3s cant. I really like images that the F3 CP.2 combos we use produce. So a quality 1080p output is still my target.

I have however long wanted to be able to include slower motion than the F3 / NX30E can give us and had been toying with adding an FS700 for that reason ... then the FS7 was announced, it seems to be the ideal tool on paper in that it will give us better slomo and a camera that can be utilised for the more mobile / fast paced / handheld projects, jobs that the F3 is a PITA to rig up up for.

ATM 4K is not really what I need but having the 4K capability will also be useful as an option when pitching to new clients etc

I would have liked cache recording, I use it a lot on the F3, very helpful for our subject matter.

I personally like the build of the F3s compared to the FS100 I owned previously however from Sam's comments it sounds as though its a similar build quality to the the 100 rather than the F3 and so would need a little bit of TLC, especially those connectors.

So I still see the FS7 as a great addition to our stable.
 
Showing it with that crappy consumer lens, which frankly is an insult to professionals everywhere, didn't help. It totally devalued the camera. Other than that I liked the build quality. Body certainly seemed more robust than 700. Viewfinder was so so. Use the body as a base and build up with decent glass and third party rig and it'll be just fine. Worth an upgrade - for me, perhaps not.
 
Thanks Sam for the summary of your impression. It sounds like you are very disappointed with the FS7 after you tried it. Somewhere I knew that the feature set and relative low price had to have some draw backs and i trust you found some of them. I'd guess there will be more once the camera end up in users hands.

I was under the impression that the body was made of magnesium and that that would make it feel solid. So the outer shell is made of plastic? Just like the F3 or more like the FS100?

As far as the lack of 240fps or higher I figured Sony wouldn't make it less than the FS700 but they both did and didn't. To me 180fps will do and it's in line with what you get out of the F55. Not to bad then and way ahead of the Canon EOS line.

As for the external stuff like EVF, handle, grip arm and cables it sounds like what can be expected is the same quality as we already seen in the FS100/FS700? I had hopes for something better. If you aim to make a self contained camera it will only reflect badly upon Sony if the included low quality stuff that barely make it hold together. Sure you can add some third party hardware to solve things but it should've been made right from the start.

As an owner of the F3 it would feel to bad to purchase something that feels flimsy in comparison.

The clips I've viewed so far from the F5 looks very fine indeed so maybe one can live with a few things on the bad side if the image is just as fine as what can be done with the F5.
 
Dissapointed is not really the right word.

I would pick this camera to shoot (solo) with - even if I had a cupboard with Amera, F55 and Alexa in it.

My FS100 has been a solid tool since day one - but when I bought it I threw away the chimney pot etc and built it my own way.

I think the body felt fine - kind of better than 100/700 and not there with F3/EX1/F5/55

But the real boon to the solo shooter is the EVF and the handle - these are the things that make the camera brilliant - but also where they just felt a little rushed and built to price

I think the menus are not what they could be - but that is typical sony and also incomplete (preproduction)

To me the bigger disappointment is really the F5 which, while built well just falls over on design detailing (for solo shooting) - no expanded focus on handle, no audio pots and other stuff I've mentioned many times

Personally Id prefer two of these, or buy a spare EVF and Handle and still it is cheaper than F5.. and better!

So that isnt really dissapointment :)
 
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I think once one has that finger/focus thing going on one will really not be able to use a camera that does not have it.

So get this, buy third party arms for the handle/EVF, cover the connectors with sugru and you have a camera you will pick up every day even if you have a F55/Alexa in the cupboard.
 
You confirm the general impression I got from the release sizzlers, Sam. I like my FS700, feeling it was well worth the purchase price. The FS7 seems like an interim camera....a disposable R&G until the next big Sony announcement from their NXCAM division. Until then, the F5/F55 seems the flagship. I guess $20k is the new $10k.
 
Hah...good point....but, an F5 weighs about the same as an FS7, both before adding the RAW add-ons. What Sony missed on the FS7 is a global shutter, choosing, instead to rehash their F5 sensor. It's a good sensor, but, still a rolling shutter. And why does Sony insist on adding on a RAW converter and recorder? I mean, I know the technical reasons, but, I think this is a marketing move, appealing to the price conscious .Good move for annual sales, bad move for camera longevity. Anyway, Sony missed the boat for my needs. I still like my FS700+O7Q combo. It just works. If only I C-D would release their 4k compressed, all would be well.
 
Well, despite the negativity, and having never liked a Sony camera before, and despite the dodgy videos posted by bloggers/educators/pretenders, I've ordered one. Not sure if I'm a numpty or not at the is point, but I have two shoots in November and December that will make or break this camera.
 
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