New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

magicdavek

Well-known member
Are people familiar with the Panasonic AG-DVC30 due out next month (March 2004)? It uses a Leica lens, has a cine gamma setting, but only 1/4 inch chips (3CCD). It should retail for street price of about $2000 (to compete with the GL2). Also, while it doesn't do 24p, it can do the equivalent of 30p which Panasonic claims gives an impressive film look. To quote the release:

The camera ''electronically interpolates interlaced images to create frames, producing images that are remarkably film-like.''

My question to DVX100 users is how many have compared 24p clips with 30p clips and noticed major differences? At other websites, some claim that it is the non-interlaced-progressive nature of the images, rather than whether it is 24p or 30p that gives the film look (the gamma curve notwithstanding, which obviously adds to the look). When I've deinterlaced 60i stuff in Final Cut Pro, I've noticed that even the 30p stuff looks more film-like, and the only difference I've noticed is that the 24p version of the same clip is choppier for movement scenes (I deliberately rendered action scenes for this little test).

So, my two part question for those on this site is:

Is there a huge difference (particulary to the untrained eye, i.e., my audience) between 30p and 24p? If the answer is "not much," then is it possible that the AG-DVC30 may become the "poor man's" DVX100? Also, I'm wondering whether this could be an inexpensive way to get another camera involved for DVX100 users (most of what I do involves 3 or more cameras, but all 60i for the time being).


For more info, see:
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/panasonic-ag-dvc30-announcement-02_02_04.htm
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

..espescially considering that using interpolation means your throwing 1/2 of your resolution out the window.
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

[quote author=iamloser link=board=nws;num=1076512344;start=0#2 date=02/11/04 at 07:40:15]..espescially considering that using interpolation means your throwing 1/2 of your resolution out the window.[/quote]

I'm not sure how this would be so. I understand the difference between 30 fps progressive scan and 60 interlaced fields playing at 30 fps (i.e., 29.97 fps). But when these fields are de-interlaced in some form or fashion (whatever "interpolated" means in the press release), I'm not sure what is lost. I don't suspect, for example, that they are only using one field per frame, that would look awful. I assume they are doing what is done in they GL2 or XL1s, right?
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

basically yes.. they are using one field per frame+ possibly some info from a nearby field like the xl1, but all said and done, its like taking one field, and interpolating the other filed through software to make one progressive frame, but really its not true progressive..its just field interpolation .. and you end up with 1/2 true resolution, although the hardware/software interpolation may look ok in the end. its nnot the method of choice by any means.
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

[quote author=John Hudson link=board=nws;num=1076512344;start=0#3 date=02/11/04 at 08:47:27]1/4 inch CCD's.

Get the big brother.[/quote]

Believe me, I'd LOVE the big brother, but having bought a brand new house and new family minivan within the past two years (plus kids braces, etc.), the "board" is not likely to approve a $3500 purchase for what, in the board's eyes, is the ability to do what I've been doing for years with a more expensive toy. However, a $1900 addition may be possible.

There's a law of diminishing returns. One could argue that rather than use 1/3 inch chips, you need a camera with 1/2 or 2/3 inch chips because the picture quality is better. Some people using the VX2000 (1/3 inch) and Sony TRV900 (1/4 inch) have indicated that they could not tell much difference in picture quality between those cameras under most circumstances. I guess I have to wait and see what kind of pictures come out of the DVC30 to decide where the cutoff point for my law of diminishing returns happens to be.

I'm a little worried about the low lux performance on the DVC30 (it's not mentioned, which probably means it's not a drawing point). I sold my 3 CCD Panasonic GS70 about two months ago because of the poor low light capabilities (under bright light, even those tiny 1/6 inch chips cranked out very good pictures-plus it had a Leica lens, which helps).
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

[quote author=iamloser link=board=nws;num=1076512344;start=0#5 date=02/11/04 at 09:17:06]basically yes...[/quote]

Thanks for the explanation. Makes me think. I'll have to wait and see. By the way, I really appreciate some of your insights from the Lighting section of this site.
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

Hey Magic

What are your plans when you do get a camera just out of curiosity?
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

Bingo, John, you've asked the right question, because application is everything!

It would get most use as the main camera for my multicamera shoots (event videography), but that's not my underlying purpose for it, because less expensive alternatives are out there. However, I have some projects uses as well. I do content videos that include some dramatic scenes to illustrate (e.g., parenting videos), and 60i footage looks crummy for these types of vignettes. Also, I have another larger project for which I am preparing in most every respect other than having the correct type of camera on hand (i.e. one that will give me the "film look" with the DVX100 being the best cost/quality alternative currently out there). This is why I asked about using software to create the film look in other threads because I need the "look" but not for everything I do. In a nutshell, for some of my most preciious endevours, the film look is critical, while for most of my more mundane video activites, there is no need.

Gee my posts are too long!
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

:) that would be the creme de la creme solution imho for him too, but considering the cost factor.. maybe just the new 30 or dvc 80 would fit the bill better. such a shame though.. just hold off as long as you can, and save longer to get the dvx100a.. thats my advice. there will comr a time when you will require more than the lesser cams, most likely in the near future. if the higher cost is not an option, than omit this post from your mind.. (or i can do it for you for a simple one time fee of 1 meeeleon dollars U.S.)
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

I really admire your priorities... Mine have kept me from the DVX100 for about 1-1/2 years. Took the plunge and got my DVX100A 2 days ago. It's really too bad I waited as now have to do about 10 remakes and 5 new production videos ("films" for us DVX100 users ;)) to re-shoot. But then again, I plan to really enjoy doing these as I will now have beautiful backdrops to work with here in Colorado.

I've tried to make film like quality using Twixtor, DE Filmlook and some others, but they "ain't" even close to what comes from the DVX100A stock.

So as I understand your dilemma, I would suggest you just hold your horses until you can spend the extra $1000+ - if at all possible.

-Rodger
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

[quote author=marjamar link=board=nws;num=1076512344;start=0#13 date=02/11/04 at 11:48:44]

I've tried to make film like quality using Twixtor, DE Filmlook and some others, but they "ain't" even close to what comes from the DVX100A stock.[/quote]

This is why I frequent this site and am hoping to buy a DVX100 (or A).

The reason for my original question is this: Just like the DVX100 closely approximates the look of film (not exact, put certainly perfect for the untrained eye, i.e., most viewers of our work), will the DVC30 closely approximate the look of film to acceptable and professional looking levels. I don't know, and will wait to find out. But as for getting a DVX100, I have 1-2 tricks up my sleeve. The problem is that it would be a credit card purchase (I do almost everything paid up front because I hate paying over time). Could I recover the costs in a reasonable time or not is the issue for me (and for convincing my wife).
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

The reason for my original question is this: Just like the DVX100 closely approximates the look of film (not exact, put certainly perfect for the untrained eye, i.e., most viewers of our work), will the DVC30 closely approximate the look of film to acceptable and professional looking levels. I don't know, and will wait to find out.

I think if you're trying to create filmic imagery, your main concern is lighting professionally...underexpose a stop or so to maintain as much detail as you can in the highlights.

The motion judder of a non-interlaced scan is normally enough to trick most people into believing they're watching something shot on film, as long as the other properties of the picture are film-like, as well. I used to shoot 30P with a Canon Optura, a one chip camera; but with the right lighting you can get very nice results.

If you're only planning to stay on video (no film print) then shooting in 30P should do the job, at least to the average viewer. A lot of footage I've seen shot with even the DVX screams video, too. Its the *lighting* that sells the look in the end.
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

I believe you are totally right, Mike. We haven't seen any DVC30 footage. However, I suspect someone who knows how to light and compose a scene using a DVC30 would produce a better quality scene than a lesser skilled person using a DVX100 (or for that matter an AJ-SDX900).  While important, the camera is one piece of the puzzle.

(Listen to me mentally preparing myself for buying a potentially sub par camera!).
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

[quote author=Gualbert link=board=nws;num=1076512344;start=0#12 date=02/11/04 at 10:55:09]You can still use 60i and with software manupulation to may obtain your "frame" mode like I used to do with my trusty TRV900 before I bought my DVX100A. [/quote]

So how did your TRV900 based projects turn out? Presentable? Convincing?
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

However, I suspect someone who knows how to light and compose a scene using a DVC80 would produce a better quality scene than a lesser skilled person using a DVX100 (or for that matter an AJ-SDX900).  While important, the camera is one piece of the puzzle.
Oh, you aren't *suspecting*. It's true. Hell, give that person a 35mm motion picture camera with panavision anamorphic lenses and they'll STILL make something that looks like crap.

(Listen to me mentally preparing myself for buying a potentially sub par camera!).
Ha! So true. Regardless, if I had the cash, I'd definitely go for the DVX (as I did, lol). But considering your situation, and considering you aren't intending to go out to film, it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

As I've said my film teacher says; you can't make chicken salad out of chicken ****. Your skills are the most important aspect in creating a good picture. :D
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

I certainly don't expect you to sacrifice your life on my part. Honestly, when I sold my 3CCD Panasonic with poor low light performance, I sought to buy a TRV900 on eBay (I don't want the 950, which supposedly isn't quite as good in low light). My goal was to use it for some projects until I can get a DVX100. After a few unsuccessful bids on eBay, I withdrew a bunch of money from PayPal to lessen the dent on the budget of my semiannual auto insurance bills (such is life). Anyway, if there is some way for you to share that information, I would love it (I have Final Cut Pro, Final Cut Express, and Adobe After Effects as raw materials for the process).

Dave
 
Re: New Panasonic AG-DVC30 & film look

Hey, thanks a lot for the suggestions. I'll test them out. These are the things I wouldn't have considered. The blah, blah stuff you referred to I am familiar with, as well as some software tweaks. So your ideas are very welcome!
I read Beale's comments on the TRV900 about a year ago, which got me excited about the camera. Like an idiot, I go and get the 3CCD Panasonic GS 70 as soon as it came out (before any reviews). I thought newer must be better (again, like an idiot), but now realize that I should have gone the TRV900 route instead.

(Incidentally, the GS70 has a Leica lens and has outstanding color and clarity in outdoor shots, but inadequate under low light. I did 6 multicamera shoots indoors with it and my one chip Sony outperformed it [it did better than the one chip Canon]. Outdoors, neither the Sony nor the Canon could compete with the GS70, which looked amazingly good.)
 
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