New Panasonic 4K 60P Camcorder HC-X1000
- Thread starter Dafilman21
- Start date
Mike Warren
Well-known member
Looks like he gave the wrong url. I think it's this: http://www.betterbatt.com.au/s/digital-camera-battery/panasonic/
I have no idea what they are like (never used them), and they don't seem to have a battery to suit the X1000 anyway.
In relation to something mentioned earlier, there are reasons why the genuine batteries are always more expensive.
1/ Big electronics companies need to protect their image of quality, so they will design the accessories as well as they can using quality components. Many (probably most) generic batteries are made from components that are optimised for price rather than reliability. This doesn't necessarily mean they will be worse quality, but rather the risk of poor quality components getting in the product is higher. Typically, the very cheap ones will be made from quite poor quality parts.
There was an incident about 7 years ago when the protection circuit in a small number of Nikon dSLR batteries failed, causing a fire. Nikon did a full recall and replaced thousands of batteries for free, even out of warranty. The makers of generic batteries don't have enough profit built in to cope with doing something like that, and will only do it if legally forced to.
2/ Selling cameras is a very competitive field, so the manufacturers have to cut their profits to the minimum to stay in the game. But they sell far fewer accessories, so the incentive is not there. There will always be enough people buying genuine accessories to suit them.
I have no idea what they are like (never used them), and they don't seem to have a battery to suit the X1000 anyway.
In relation to something mentioned earlier, there are reasons why the genuine batteries are always more expensive.
1/ Big electronics companies need to protect their image of quality, so they will design the accessories as well as they can using quality components. Many (probably most) generic batteries are made from components that are optimised for price rather than reliability. This doesn't necessarily mean they will be worse quality, but rather the risk of poor quality components getting in the product is higher. Typically, the very cheap ones will be made from quite poor quality parts.
There was an incident about 7 years ago when the protection circuit in a small number of Nikon dSLR batteries failed, causing a fire. Nikon did a full recall and replaced thousands of batteries for free, even out of warranty. The makers of generic batteries don't have enough profit built in to cope with doing something like that, and will only do it if legally forced to.
2/ Selling cameras is a very competitive field, so the manufacturers have to cut their profits to the minimum to stay in the game. But they sell far fewer accessories, so the incentive is not there. There will always be enough people buying genuine accessories to suit them.
fastfinger
Well-known member
Side by side comparison HC-X1000 vs Sony AX100
I found and looked at this video before you put it up.
Now i don't have the HC-X1000 yet, but the section after 5:33, the only reason that could be so bad is because there is something wrong with the settings (based on other videos i have seen).
Nobody buys a $3000+ camera and only runs it on "out of the box" settings!
Has anyone on here got any similar video they could put up?
Now i don't have the HC-X1000 yet, but the section after 5:33, the only reason that could be so bad is because there is something wrong with the settings (based on other videos i have seen).
Nobody buys a $3000+ camera and only runs it on "out of the box" settings!
Has anyone on here got any similar video they could put up?
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Barry_Green
Moderator
No idea what that's about. Maybe he didn't have the stabilization turned on or something?
The image stabilization on the HC-X1000 is -- in my opinion -- glorious. I covered an event with the X1000, it was all-day, two days, outdoors, on a shooting range that was I don't even know how many acres large. I decided early on that I wanted to only schlep around a small camera and I ditched the tripod right away as it simply wasn't necessary. All the shots in this piece were shot handheld 100%. Some show their handheld nature more than others, but on the interviews I was really pleased with how tripod-like they were. I had zero problems with OIS at all.
The image stabilization on the HC-X1000 is -- in my opinion -- glorious. I covered an event with the X1000, it was all-day, two days, outdoors, on a shooting range that was I don't even know how many acres large. I decided early on that I wanted to only schlep around a small camera and I ditched the tripod right away as it simply wasn't necessary. All the shots in this piece were shot handheld 100%. Some show their handheld nature more than others, but on the interviews I was really pleased with how tripod-like they were. I had zero problems with OIS at all.
I will tell you this much :
Unless you are planing to shoot outside in the middle of the day - wildlife , mountain bike , ski/snowboard etc, - The x-1000 camera is, to put it mildly, a horrible sub-par camera.
I got one of the first units on B&H , I'm the guy that posted the very first video showing the 24p flicker problem (thanks to Barry Green, Panasonic responded rather quickly with a firmware update).
I must confess that I NEVER buy anything without first looking at proper reviews. I usually take my time and wait for V1.1 of any products to come out before buying. But this time , it seemed to good to be true : a run and gun eng style 4k, small factor, solid little panasonic unit that I could match (somewhat) with my lovely GH4. I got lured by the B&H pre-reviews, the specs etc etc ... Big big mistake ....
First of all, the flicker problem was so obvious that it is quite astonishing that it came out of the factory like that. To be honest that is very bad quality control.
I know this kind of problem can happen and Panasonic fixed it , but still, that was not a very subtle problem. It was right in your face.
I have to say I tried, I really did try to use it to it's full potential. I put 24 hours of shooting on that little thing before I send it back to B&H for a loss.
The form factor and the ergonomics are perfect. The size is the best compromise I have seen for this kind of camera. It is well build , looks , and feels solid ... that is the good part
Now for the bad .... This camera is so freaking dark it is almost ridiculous. This thing has a base ISO of 64 ... maybe 50 , and as soon as you zoom in a bit the aperture quickly closes to f4.
64iso at F4 ...Really ? You have got to be kidding me!
The solution ? Add an insane amount of electronic gain just to achieve proper exposure on ANYTHING shot anywhere else but outside in broad daylight.
I had to crank it up all the way to 24db just get normal exposure on a well lit live event stage (imagine TED talk quality stage light).
The resulting image , even downrezed to 1080 was uglier and noisier than anything I shot with my HPX170 6 years ago ...
Even outdoor's wildlife videographers will curse at magic hour, I know , I have tried ...
I really could go on about how bad that little camera is. Trying to cramp 4k resolution on that tiny sensor was a mistake, And I should have known better.
The Sony x-70 (much cheaper) that I just tried out today , just blows Panasonic away (Still not 4k I know - But 1080p indoors is much much better)
Sorry for my English, it is not my first language, and it sounds even worst when i'm pissed ...
-L
Unless you are planing to shoot outside in the middle of the day - wildlife , mountain bike , ski/snowboard etc, - The x-1000 camera is, to put it mildly, a horrible sub-par camera.
I got one of the first units on B&H , I'm the guy that posted the very first video showing the 24p flicker problem (thanks to Barry Green, Panasonic responded rather quickly with a firmware update).
I must confess that I NEVER buy anything without first looking at proper reviews. I usually take my time and wait for V1.1 of any products to come out before buying. But this time , it seemed to good to be true : a run and gun eng style 4k, small factor, solid little panasonic unit that I could match (somewhat) with my lovely GH4. I got lured by the B&H pre-reviews, the specs etc etc ... Big big mistake ....
First of all, the flicker problem was so obvious that it is quite astonishing that it came out of the factory like that. To be honest that is very bad quality control.
I know this kind of problem can happen and Panasonic fixed it , but still, that was not a very subtle problem. It was right in your face.
I have to say I tried, I really did try to use it to it's full potential. I put 24 hours of shooting on that little thing before I send it back to B&H for a loss.
The form factor and the ergonomics are perfect. The size is the best compromise I have seen for this kind of camera. It is well build , looks , and feels solid ... that is the good part
Now for the bad .... This camera is so freaking dark it is almost ridiculous. This thing has a base ISO of 64 ... maybe 50 , and as soon as you zoom in a bit the aperture quickly closes to f4.
64iso at F4 ...Really ? You have got to be kidding me!
The solution ? Add an insane amount of electronic gain just to achieve proper exposure on ANYTHING shot anywhere else but outside in broad daylight.
I had to crank it up all the way to 24db just get normal exposure on a well lit live event stage (imagine TED talk quality stage light).
The resulting image , even downrezed to 1080 was uglier and noisier than anything I shot with my HPX170 6 years ago ...
Even outdoor's wildlife videographers will curse at magic hour, I know , I have tried ...
I really could go on about how bad that little camera is. Trying to cramp 4k resolution on that tiny sensor was a mistake, And I should have known better.
The Sony x-70 (much cheaper) that I just tried out today , just blows Panasonic away (Still not 4k I know - But 1080p indoors is much much better)
Sorry for my English, it is not my first language, and it sounds even worst when i'm pissed ...
-L
fastfinger
Well-known member
Has anyone done any rapid shot to shot action shooting? I'm wondering if the camera becomes slow to respond due buffering. I read a comment this happens with the AX100
Bassman2003
Veteran
You can't fight physics. Light sensitivity is more important to professional shooting than any amount of resolution. 1st Wave of 4k cameras = try before you buy imho.
Jarek Zabczynski
Veteran
Yeah I really want the pro version of this. P2, SDI, AVC etc...
Barry_Green
Moderator
I think the camera is excellent, and it delivers beautiful results, but you do have to understand its fundamental limitation -- the sensitivity is about 64 ISO. That's it.
You have to match the tool to the job. If you're used to shooting low-lit interiors where you're using DSLRs set at 2000 ISO, then no, the HC-X1000 would be a terrible choice for that.
If you're shooting in daylight, or where you otherwise understand and work within the limitations of the sensitivity, then it can do a fantastic job.
It's just like the AC90 in that respect. The AC90 was about 50 ISO, the HC-X1000 is about the same. For that matter, so was the HMC40. Understood and used within their limitations, they produce images better than they have any right to. But nobody should go thinking that they can crank up 18dB of gain and that they'll be happy with the picture, because that just isn't a reasonable expectation for these cameras.
They need light. Lots of it. About 9dB is the maximum I would generally consider using for gain. If that's not bright enough, the only solution is to add more light. I would not choose this camera (or an AC90, or an HMC40) for shooting indoor available-light wedding receptions, for example -- it's totally the wrong choice for that.
But as Candle said a couple of posts above, using it for skateboarding, he loves the results. You have to use the right tool for the right job.
Barry_Green
Moderator
XL2 was standard def. When we went to high-def with the same basic chip size, ISO got cut to 1/4 of what it was. When we went to 4K, ISO should get cut again, although it seems to be about the same.
Pixel size is a huge determinant of light-gathering capability. The pixel size on the XL2 was utterly gigantic, as compared to any HD camera, and any HD camera's pixel size is 4x bigger than a 4K camera's pixel size. Technology can close the gap somewhat (as the 4K HC-X1000 is about the same sensitivity as the HD AC90) but there's only so much one can expect.
Pixel size is a huge determinant of light-gathering capability. The pixel size on the XL2 was utterly gigantic, as compared to any HD camera, and any HD camera's pixel size is 4x bigger than a 4K camera's pixel size. Technology can close the gap somewhat (as the 4K HC-X1000 is about the same sensitivity as the HD AC90) but there's only so much one can expect.
See I come from cinema, and for me the real 24p film look Panasonic introduced with the DVX100 was a blessing at the time.
A very important camera to say the least, a real game changer, that was somewhat affordable and actually gave me the opportunity
to do my own stuff for the first time and start a production company.I then went the Panasonic route with HD HVX-200 HPX-170 250 etc etc ....
Like I said in a previous post , buying the HC-X1000 camera was a mistake and an eyeopener.
It is over now, for me Panasonic is not an option anymore. Whatever one might say, they are way way behind the curve now.
(I have to be honest, Im talking about ENG style cameras... Because the GH4 is an incredible m43 product)
Well yes I was expecting more from Panasonic. To be honest Barry I don't even know why a company would even want to come
out with such a limited product. Seriously ? An outdoor only camera ? Why ? How about I start a business that make indoor only cameras ?
For me this business model is flawed, they made extremely poor choices.
If I find the time in the coming weeks I might do a proper video review : hc-x100 vs Sony PXW-X70
-L
A very important camera to say the least, a real game changer, that was somewhat affordable and actually gave me the opportunity
to do my own stuff for the first time and start a production company.I then went the Panasonic route with HD HVX-200 HPX-170 250 etc etc ....
Like I said in a previous post , buying the HC-X1000 camera was a mistake and an eyeopener.
It is over now, for me Panasonic is not an option anymore. Whatever one might say, they are way way behind the curve now.
(I have to be honest, Im talking about ENG style cameras... Because the GH4 is an incredible m43 product)
Well yes I was expecting more from Panasonic. To be honest Barry I don't even know why a company would even want to come
out with such a limited product. Seriously ? An outdoor only camera ? Why ? How about I start a business that make indoor only cameras ?
For me this business model is flawed, they made extremely poor choices.
If I find the time in the coming weeks I might do a proper video review : hc-x100 vs Sony PXW-X70
-L
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Would you prefer the camera cost $9,000.00? You can't have everything for nothing. This camera is about the price of low to mid range ENG style HD cameras and yet you get the ability to shoot 4k. That ability is going to cost a premium right now. In order to really increase the ISO performance for a ENG style 4k camera Panasonic would need to move to 2/3" or maybe even a m43 sensor to bring the ISO performance back up. All of which would greatly increase the price of the camera. There are those m43 users who even question if a m43 sensor is large enough for 4k video.
4k is not going to be cheap right now. The Gh4 isn't crazy expensive but the 4k sensor technology was already there. The GH4 is also not a ENG style camera with a built in electronic lens. Two totally different beasts.
If you have a cinema background why on earth are you using ENG cameras? Why not move towards a GH4 which is designed for cinema work and a much better low light tool.
I'm sure Panasonic will eventually come out with more pro line 4k cameras. To expect a $3,500.00 4k camera to match that of HD performance levels is just unrealistic. It isn't taking a step backwards but a necessary step forward if one wants 4k recording. To be honest anything less than 2/3" was always kind of pushing it for HD in terms of low light. It took a few years before 1/3" sensors matured to the point where they could get decent full HD performance with decent low light without some sort of image processing like pixel shifting. Even with the advancements 1/3" for HD will never be as sensitive as 1/3" for SD. 1/2.3" sensors are not very big for 4k image capture. Heck thats not very big for HD either.
You have to remember Panasonic usually has cameras that fit different levels and cost. This will likely be the lowest end model. Not worth judging Panasonic or their capability to product a great 4k camera. You just need to wait for the higher end model you clearly are looking for. Just be prepared to pay more for it than $3,500.00.
Well first, as I have already posted twice here I do have a full on GH4 rig with many lenses, and a Metabone speedbooster.
That combo more or less brings the M43 sensor size and ratio close to the super 35 format. Emulating the feel , and the depth of higher-end professional movie cameras like the Alexa.
So my "cinema" work is covered , for the moment with this rig". I love the GH4, and attaching a Atomos Shogun on it will be even better.
That being said. I need a ENG style camera in my tools , because I do shoot many different things. My formation is in Cinema, I do films , documentaries and commercials with the GH4
but Iv also been shooting live events , and corporative work and seminars for a long time now.
My opinion on the latest Panasonic product will not change. I think that trying to cramp 4K resolution onto that small sensor was a huge mistake. Period.
It is a sub-par camera even for the price range.
Go chekout Plegilink's review on the Sony PXW-X70 ... Go see what you can get for 1000$ less ...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?332403-Sony-PXW-X70-Pro-s-and-Con-s-Review
-L
That combo more or less brings the M43 sensor size and ratio close to the super 35 format. Emulating the feel , and the depth of higher-end professional movie cameras like the Alexa.
So my "cinema" work is covered , for the moment with this rig". I love the GH4, and attaching a Atomos Shogun on it will be even better.
That being said. I need a ENG style camera in my tools , because I do shoot many different things. My formation is in Cinema, I do films , documentaries and commercials with the GH4
but Iv also been shooting live events , and corporative work and seminars for a long time now.
My opinion on the latest Panasonic product will not change. I think that trying to cramp 4K resolution onto that small sensor was a huge mistake. Period.
It is a sub-par camera even for the price range.
Go chekout Plegilink's review on the Sony PXW-X70 ... Go see what you can get for 1000$ less ...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?332403-Sony-PXW-X70-Pro-s-and-Con-s-Review
-L
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This guy says good things in his video review on the HC-X1000:
http://vimeo.com/114209075
Sure he doesn't go into as much detail as that Sony Pro's and Con's does, and he puts this up on the 5th Jan but that isn't a huge put off.
http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2015/01/05/panasonic-hc-x1000-as-a-4k-camera/
I watched all that Sony video, and that was a put off for me
At 10:15, bit of a windy day, what, 35 knots? That was terrible IMO!
Gain in 3db Increments.
What has the HD-X1000 got, I need better than 3?
Paid 4K upgrade, how much?
Will it be 50p, or only 25p?
I also want better than 12x Optical Zoom. That 24x doesn't look bad, but I'm just not too sure.
I just wish the stores in Australia would give the same return policy as B&H, but they don't.
http://vimeo.com/114209075
Sure he doesn't go into as much detail as that Sony Pro's and Con's does, and he puts this up on the 5th Jan but that isn't a huge put off.
http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2015/01/05/panasonic-hc-x1000-as-a-4k-camera/
I watched all that Sony video, and that was a put off for me
At 10:15, bit of a windy day, what, 35 knots? That was terrible IMO!
Gain in 3db Increments.
What has the HD-X1000 got, I need better than 3?
Paid 4K upgrade, how much?
Will it be 50p, or only 25p?
I also want better than 12x Optical Zoom. That 24x doesn't look bad, but I'm just not too sure.
I just wish the stores in Australia would give the same return policy as B&H, but they don't.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Sorry I do not agree. Since 4k is new this is not a sub par option for the money. Find an alternative that is better right now? No ENG camera is going to handle 4k better with a smaller sensor. If one wants 4k and needs a ENG style camera and doesn't want to spend $9,000.00+ then the Panasonic is a great option. It clearly doesn't fit your workflow which means you need to wait for a higher end model with a bigger sensor that works for you or stick with HD until ENG cameras can increase their sensitivity with 4k.
There are a lot of shooting situations where a less sensitive camera can work very well. Maybe it doesn't work for the type of projects you shoot but that does not make it a bad camera. It just means it is a camera that isn't the right fit for what you shoot. I myself tend to light everything I shoot at work. This camera may not be for me either but that doesn't mean I consider it a bad camera at all. In fact I think it is impressive for what it is. A first generation 4k camera with a small sensor. It isn't rocket science to know it probably wasn't going to be very good in low light. I'm not sure why anybody would buy it thinking that would be different in any way. Nobody would ever buy this camera for low light shooting just like how I never used the HMC40 for low light shooting. Still a great camera for HD and in good lighting could match ENG cameras that cost 3x to 4x as much. These cameras have a ton of pro level features and quality if you give them light.