F55: New F55 owner, new to forum, new to industry - any advice, hints etc
- Thread starter captainjman
- Start date
RX8Pilot - I am a pilot as well, I flew cargo in a Cessna Caravan and King Air 200, then a Canadair Regional Jet CRJ100,200,700 and 900 for Mesa airlines and then flew the Piaggio P180 I & II until I hurt my spine. I thought I sensed a disturbance in the force
I always look up when I hear that distinctive Piaggio sound overhead. I think the idea of learning on a high end camera is like learning aerobatics in an Extra 300L, all the tools are there to help you do a good job so you're not wasting time trying to compensate. Good luck with your new venture.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
@ Dennis and Jim, very good advice and well said.
@Jim, thanks for the plug!
@Jim, thanks for the plug!
captainjman
Well-known member
I want to thank everyone for taking the time to get me some help getting started. Indeed there is a lot of good advice in here.
1. nsohz - I will definitely look into going to the Abel Cine 1 day course - I have some limitations I didn't really mention yet (at the moment). But if at all possible it sounds like money well spent to get some advice from experts for a whole day!
2. StarCentral - Thank you for helping me better understand RGB vs. ycbcr vs. Raw- Raw I totally understand, when I get the AXS-R5 next week I only records in RAW if I recall, but I still have to decide what to shoot internally on either the SxS or xqd cards... I already purchased 3 of the adaptors, and a xqd card reader - Other than the fact that they don't come any bigger than 64gb (at least for now) - it seems the info you provided shows that the xqd card is fast enough for all internal recording options (at least for the time being, upgrades not withstanding) WHAT SETTING DO YOU PERSONALLY USE? - RGB?
3. Jimritscher - I think that working for free is a great idea. When I was a CFII in college I wanted to get multi-engine time so I wrote letters to every turboprop and jet operator in the country. I got several offers and took the King Air job as an internship- I cleaned the planes, loaded the cargo, got food and coffee for everyone and by the time the summer ended I was called to the chief pilots office - and offered a job right there on the spot. They paid me really well while still in college (64,000 dollars) and I was able to work off campus the last semester, finishing school with all my loans paid off, and had a great job... until 911. LOL Internships are a great way to get your foot in the door and gain experience. I definitely feel humble and know my place, and trust me - I am not one of those people who thinks the world owes them something. I will be following your advice, I already responded to Craigslist listing saying I will shoot for free and turn over all my clips - just to be a part of a large shoot and learn as much as possible.
4. Dermot - Following your advice I just emailed a colorist here in Chicago - I hope they will let me come in and watch. If not, maybe I need to hire them to color my clips and just watch them and see how they did it? What software do you use? I currently use FCPX and have downloaded Resolve but haven't really worked with it yet. What post production software do you use / suggest?
5. JMichael - Yeah - the Piaggio is a little different, we used to call it the weed-whacker when I worked for Avantair (until I had my spine injury). Now Avantair is out of business and the CEO supposedly stole a lot of money from the company and ran. I would assume at least for the time being, until the smoke clears, that there will be very little Piaggio noise... owners need to figure out how to divvy up the planes that are shared up to 16 different ways. The plane was sexy in some ways and ugly in others. Up front with all the static wicks on the forward wing I used to call it a flying Catfish. I assume you fly too... yes?
Like you I figured that having decent equipment would help me do better - and learn on the camera that I actually want to use. Instead of working so hard to compensate for a lower end camera, I figured the less I have to fiddle with the Camera to get it to do what I want - I can use all that time learning the trade and business. At least in the sense of the analogy between the F55 and a Extra 300 is that with the extra you can kill yourself and with a camera you really don't have to worry about getting killed. I guess in a way I am like the Doctor who has more money than experience who buys a plane outside of his skill level like the Doctor Killing Bonanzas LOL
6. Doug Jensen - I will order your video today
If you guys hear of anything in the Chicago area that I could watch, be a part of, learn from , etc - please let me know..
Jason
1. nsohz - I will definitely look into going to the Abel Cine 1 day course - I have some limitations I didn't really mention yet (at the moment). But if at all possible it sounds like money well spent to get some advice from experts for a whole day!
2. StarCentral - Thank you for helping me better understand RGB vs. ycbcr vs. Raw- Raw I totally understand, when I get the AXS-R5 next week I only records in RAW if I recall, but I still have to decide what to shoot internally on either the SxS or xqd cards... I already purchased 3 of the adaptors, and a xqd card reader - Other than the fact that they don't come any bigger than 64gb (at least for now) - it seems the info you provided shows that the xqd card is fast enough for all internal recording options (at least for the time being, upgrades not withstanding) WHAT SETTING DO YOU PERSONALLY USE? - RGB?
3. Jimritscher - I think that working for free is a great idea. When I was a CFII in college I wanted to get multi-engine time so I wrote letters to every turboprop and jet operator in the country. I got several offers and took the King Air job as an internship- I cleaned the planes, loaded the cargo, got food and coffee for everyone and by the time the summer ended I was called to the chief pilots office - and offered a job right there on the spot. They paid me really well while still in college (64,000 dollars) and I was able to work off campus the last semester, finishing school with all my loans paid off, and had a great job... until 911. LOL Internships are a great way to get your foot in the door and gain experience. I definitely feel humble and know my place, and trust me - I am not one of those people who thinks the world owes them something. I will be following your advice, I already responded to Craigslist listing saying I will shoot for free and turn over all my clips - just to be a part of a large shoot and learn as much as possible.
4. Dermot - Following your advice I just emailed a colorist here in Chicago - I hope they will let me come in and watch. If not, maybe I need to hire them to color my clips and just watch them and see how they did it? What software do you use? I currently use FCPX and have downloaded Resolve but haven't really worked with it yet. What post production software do you use / suggest?
5. JMichael - Yeah - the Piaggio is a little different, we used to call it the weed-whacker when I worked for Avantair (until I had my spine injury). Now Avantair is out of business and the CEO supposedly stole a lot of money from the company and ran. I would assume at least for the time being, until the smoke clears, that there will be very little Piaggio noise... owners need to figure out how to divvy up the planes that are shared up to 16 different ways. The plane was sexy in some ways and ugly in others. Up front with all the static wicks on the forward wing I used to call it a flying Catfish. I assume you fly too... yes?
Like you I figured that having decent equipment would help me do better - and learn on the camera that I actually want to use. Instead of working so hard to compensate for a lower end camera, I figured the less I have to fiddle with the Camera to get it to do what I want - I can use all that time learning the trade and business. At least in the sense of the analogy between the F55 and a Extra 300 is that with the extra you can kill yourself and with a camera you really don't have to worry about getting killed. I guess in a way I am like the Doctor who has more money than experience who buys a plane outside of his skill level like the Doctor Killing Bonanzas LOL
6. Doug Jensen - I will order your video today
If you guys hear of anything in the Chicago area that I could watch, be a part of, learn from , etc - please let me know..
Jason
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Im ex stills. Ive not read the whole thread but..
1) hey the camera cost about the same cost as a digi-back a few years ago - bargain - every cheaper video camera has some form of critical flaw that makes it unusable - you skipped a bunch of headaches.
2) shoot raw - everything else is depressing and leaves you no room to correct in post - skip the headache of learning archane delogging BS
3) If you can frame a proper still you are ahead of 98% of video people.
4) If you can manual focus you are ahead of 99% of video people.
Video.
You are placing the lens and placing a microphone(s) choosing an exposure, little more. Stills you need to place the lens for 1/250 of a second, video you need to place it for 5 seconds to minutes or hours.
Placing the lens is (extremely) hard to do in a controlled manner for more than 1/250 of a second. You will need a tripod and or a bunch of other bits.
Focus. There is no compromise - you are on manual focus and if the ears are sharp and the eyes out the shot is bust - no different from a still.
Shooting 4k focus is a problem - technology has not really caught up with the resolution - even with a 1080 monitor (screen) you only see 1/4 of what you are recording.
Sound. An image with no sound is 'dead'. Get obsessed. Sound is 60% of the job? Tip - get the mic close. Find out what room-tone is. If you start be doing pretty films to music you are on the wrong course to becoming a story teller.
Lights. Video lights suck.(making somthing bright for 1/250 is easy, but continuously not) Nothing has the power of the humblest speedlight let alone 500Elly or Bowens. Reflectors are cool, so are HMI lights and for low budget I use tungsten which has no power once you gel it.
Exposure; the tools on the Sony are bit rubbish, from what I can work out select CineEI 640 and that will show you your true clip point and allow you to ETTR,
Don't let anyone tell you ETTR wont get a clean image.. of course it will.
Reflections. Dont film yourself you cant clone it out later. s*%t on the sensor - keep it clean - you cant clone it out later. Even a reflection/shadow of a moving boom mic will mess you up. ON set monitors are so crap it is easy to film yourself or your shadow. Get a sunshade for your monitor so you have some concept of what you are filming. The fire extinguisher in the corner? Move it. You cant clone it out later. Spots, bad skin, stray hairs - no clone tool. Sort it.
Story. Well that is the new challenge. As stills togs we often produce a few pics that are integrated into a final product - maybe a magazine - with headlines, text, and layout. A video is the final product. The audio makes the text. If you have not done any writing get in to that - script - watch some trash TV and write down the scripts - find formuae (of course maybe you just want to operate and then just point the cam at what the director wants)
Be sceptical of videographers selling knowledge, especially technical knowledge - most likely you have exposed, shot and processed 4k raw for a decade or more, most video people started learning raw last week.
Most colourists well, do their images look as good as you pull from photoshop? If not move on. BTW Resolve is the colour software.
Be extremely careful of video people telling you what you can do with a raw file or how to expose it.
Pay huge respect to videographers knowledge of cutting sequences, camera moves and story drink that up. Learn jump cut, 30 dregree rule, continuity, sequences, try and guess the next shot in films.
Learn to edit. A film is made in the edit. Even if you dont want to edit fulltime editing your own stuff will expose you to what you failed to shoot and show you how what you shot doesnt cut together. Editing informs what you shoot next time.
You wife and kids watch telly. They know what cuts. If what you produce does not engage them, you are not producing something engaging. If they are confused or dont understand where stuff is what is going on that is your fault. Do it again.
Video is easy - like the rules of chess or painting (dip brush apply to canvas) or writing (write words on page) - but of course mastery is infinitely complex.
Be physically gentle. Even dinking the start button will mess your shot, or someone walking past your tripod on a sprung floor, or or or..
___
BTW I think Shoot56 is wrong. The 55 is in a way the cheapest video camera that is usable, but you still have to learn video, but it is a great tool to learn on .. it is easier to learn on than the glitch ridden cameras that are available more cheaply. Of course you can learn on an iphone/handycam too.
1) hey the camera cost about the same cost as a digi-back a few years ago - bargain - every cheaper video camera has some form of critical flaw that makes it unusable - you skipped a bunch of headaches.
2) shoot raw - everything else is depressing and leaves you no room to correct in post - skip the headache of learning archane delogging BS
3) If you can frame a proper still you are ahead of 98% of video people.
4) If you can manual focus you are ahead of 99% of video people.
Video.
You are placing the lens and placing a microphone(s) choosing an exposure, little more. Stills you need to place the lens for 1/250 of a second, video you need to place it for 5 seconds to minutes or hours.
Placing the lens is (extremely) hard to do in a controlled manner for more than 1/250 of a second. You will need a tripod and or a bunch of other bits.
Focus. There is no compromise - you are on manual focus and if the ears are sharp and the eyes out the shot is bust - no different from a still.
Shooting 4k focus is a problem - technology has not really caught up with the resolution - even with a 1080 monitor (screen) you only see 1/4 of what you are recording.
Sound. An image with no sound is 'dead'. Get obsessed. Sound is 60% of the job? Tip - get the mic close. Find out what room-tone is. If you start be doing pretty films to music you are on the wrong course to becoming a story teller.
Lights. Video lights suck.(making somthing bright for 1/250 is easy, but continuously not) Nothing has the power of the humblest speedlight let alone 500Elly or Bowens. Reflectors are cool, so are HMI lights and for low budget I use tungsten which has no power once you gel it.
Exposure; the tools on the Sony are bit rubbish, from what I can work out select CineEI 640 and that will show you your true clip point and allow you to ETTR,
Don't let anyone tell you ETTR wont get a clean image.. of course it will.
Reflections. Dont film yourself you cant clone it out later. s*%t on the sensor - keep it clean - you cant clone it out later. Even a reflection/shadow of a moving boom mic will mess you up. ON set monitors are so crap it is easy to film yourself or your shadow. Get a sunshade for your monitor so you have some concept of what you are filming. The fire extinguisher in the corner? Move it. You cant clone it out later. Spots, bad skin, stray hairs - no clone tool. Sort it.
Story. Well that is the new challenge. As stills togs we often produce a few pics that are integrated into a final product - maybe a magazine - with headlines, text, and layout. A video is the final product. The audio makes the text. If you have not done any writing get in to that - script - watch some trash TV and write down the scripts - find formuae (of course maybe you just want to operate and then just point the cam at what the director wants)
Be sceptical of videographers selling knowledge, especially technical knowledge - most likely you have exposed, shot and processed 4k raw for a decade or more, most video people started learning raw last week.
Most colourists well, do their images look as good as you pull from photoshop? If not move on. BTW Resolve is the colour software.
Be extremely careful of video people telling you what you can do with a raw file or how to expose it.
Pay huge respect to videographers knowledge of cutting sequences, camera moves and story drink that up. Learn jump cut, 30 dregree rule, continuity, sequences, try and guess the next shot in films.
Learn to edit. A film is made in the edit. Even if you dont want to edit fulltime editing your own stuff will expose you to what you failed to shoot and show you how what you shot doesnt cut together. Editing informs what you shoot next time.
You wife and kids watch telly. They know what cuts. If what you produce does not engage them, you are not producing something engaging. If they are confused or dont understand where stuff is what is going on that is your fault. Do it again.
Video is easy - like the rules of chess or painting (dip brush apply to canvas) or writing (write words on page) - but of course mastery is infinitely complex.
Be physically gentle. Even dinking the start button will mess your shot, or someone walking past your tripod on a sprung floor, or or or..
___
BTW I think Shoot56 is wrong. The 55 is in a way the cheapest video camera that is usable, but you still have to learn video, but it is a great tool to learn on .. it is easier to learn on than the glitch ridden cameras that are available more cheaply. Of course you can learn on an iphone/handycam too.
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Shame about Avantair. Yes I fly a 1949 Stinson 108-3.
starcentral
Veteran
Until you get the RAW recorder you will be able to chose YPbPr or RGB depending on the combination of the camera frequency (59.94, 29.97, 24, 23.98) and format (Mpeg, xavc, SStP SR-Lite/SQ) you select.
I generally shoot 4k XAVC and that specific resolution can not record in RGB but most of the resolutions below 4k can. It's best to check the complete table on page 27 of the F55 v3 operation manual.
Also if you shoot using the slog2 gamma, on the F55 you can enable s-gamut from the "color space" menu under "base setting" which will give you a wider color gamut.
I generally shoot 4k XAVC and that specific resolution can not record in RGB but most of the resolutions below 4k can. It's best to check the complete table on page 27 of the F55 v3 operation manual.
Also if you shoot using the slog2 gamma, on the F55 you can enable s-gamut from the "color space" menu under "base setting" which will give you a wider color gamut.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
This is the sort (soon to be) pointless knowledge that just shooting raw will mean you can skip. Im sure it is accurate.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
My advice is to be careful who you take advice from.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Indeed. Anyway - break mine down ..
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
I think I make a serious point - with a tone of humour some may miss.
People with 20+ years of video have a great deal of technical baggage, valuable baggage but not relevant the the F55. They have developed some amazing skills basically to get around the crappy cameras they have been forced to use.
Seriously the DR and image quality or ISO of video cameras from 1980 to 2012 was terrible. No image compared to a stills camera beyond about a Nikon D70.
These people have had to learn a bunch of tips and tricks to account for the truly awful image making machines they had.
You are in a supremely privileged position to not to have to learn gamma, 'painting a camera', knee, and a bunch of s*%tty things that have helped to squeeze an acceptable image from a 2mp camera set on jpg 2. Sony incomprehensible white papers on Slog are just not relevant if you switch the camera to raw.
It takes real skill to get a 2mp camera at jpg 2 to look half decent, especially a camera with 5 stops of DR, put that into a live broadcast environment and the skills step up a level.
But you have an F55, not a crappy 1980 vid cam, and don't want to do live work; it shoots raw and is good for at least 1200 ISO and 12 stops, this is an amazing combination and really it is simple to use. Choose a frame rate, ND/ISO to give you the Fstop you want, Shutter at 180, Check the histo - shoot.
--
Obviously shooting 4k raw will land you in data hell - you are going down a TB per outing most likely - now you seem well funded so that should be a surmountable problem. It is always possible to shoot raw, add a little correction and then transcode to a manageable file format and bin the raw if you don't have a budget for HDrives. But doing that binning in camera when you don't have to just doesn't seem to stack up - your computer is a better computer than your camera and you make choices in the calm of the office.
People with 20+ years of video have a great deal of technical baggage, valuable baggage but not relevant the the F55. They have developed some amazing skills basically to get around the crappy cameras they have been forced to use.
Seriously the DR and image quality or ISO of video cameras from 1980 to 2012 was terrible. No image compared to a stills camera beyond about a Nikon D70.
These people have had to learn a bunch of tips and tricks to account for the truly awful image making machines they had.
You are in a supremely privileged position to not to have to learn gamma, 'painting a camera', knee, and a bunch of s*%tty things that have helped to squeeze an acceptable image from a 2mp camera set on jpg 2. Sony incomprehensible white papers on Slog are just not relevant if you switch the camera to raw.
It takes real skill to get a 2mp camera at jpg 2 to look half decent, especially a camera with 5 stops of DR, put that into a live broadcast environment and the skills step up a level.
But you have an F55, not a crappy 1980 vid cam, and don't want to do live work; it shoots raw and is good for at least 1200 ISO and 12 stops, this is an amazing combination and really it is simple to use. Choose a frame rate, ND/ISO to give you the Fstop you want, Shutter at 180, Check the histo - shoot.
--
Obviously shooting 4k raw will land you in data hell - you are going down a TB per outing most likely - now you seem well funded so that should be a surmountable problem. It is always possible to shoot raw, add a little correction and then transcode to a manageable file format and bin the raw if you don't have a budget for HDrives. But doing that binning in camera when you don't have to just doesn't seem to stack up - your computer is a better computer than your camera and you make choices in the calm of the office.
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starcentral
Veteran
I'm on the tipping bucket of getting the R5 system from my F55 but not until I exhaust all avenues of how much I can squeeze out of the 10-bit slog2 from it. I agree with what Morgan has said earlier, slog is actually a huge pain in the ass and from 2 years of watching people post material with the F3 and now F5/F55 I can honestly say it does not hold up to my standards, or at least what I would like to see out of the camera.
As they say "It's close but no cigar."
As they say "It's close but no cigar."
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
My conclusion with the F5 was that without the Raw facility it was just not worth it over the F3. I love that system but I neither had the cash for the camera nor the computer muscle to handle a TB a day, but if I was in that lucky position Id be all over it
Dennis - buy it you wont look back.
Coming from stills, I come from a culture where only mums shoots jpg.
As for dealing in post that is a bit of a different chat..
Dennis - buy it you wont look back.
Coming from stills, I come from a culture where only mums shoots jpg.
As for dealing in post that is a bit of a different chat..
Hunter Hampton
Carbonite Member
Keep calm and S-LOG.
I can use most anything, the only thing i really need is external scopes, a working surface and a calibrated monitor, i usualy use a Dolby PR4200, a Sony BVM OLED or a Christe 2K projector as my ref mon these days
I find Resolve without the big panels to be alot of mouse clicking and really built around hue off-sets, not straight forward to work with uncoupled color channels as i prefer, the only other way to get there from here is to use the mouse <sigh>
But i can use it, just not a first or even second choice
My advice would be to step cautiously when it comes to giving your labor and or gear away for free/cheap to "get experience" in this business. Many of us worked hard to build what we have and don't appreciate people who lowball or give away gear to get their foot in the door. Here in Chicago, everyone talks to each other, and we all have very good memories.
kwkeirstead
Well-known member
Aside from being able to afford a camcorder such as the F55 , the only negative I see is not being able to master its capabilities before it is time to retire it.
Grug
Veteran
Even with the crazy pace that digital is moving, I don't think 16-bit Linear raw 4K files with 14-stops of DR are going to require retirement or replacement for a LONG time.
That better be the truth. Capturing more information won't really make a better image that most will ever appreciate. If you get a bad picture with an F55 it's ALL your fault. You may be able to blame a lesser camera's lack of capability.
captainjman
Well-known member
Whoe there, easy killer - I come in peace!!
I don't know what equipment you think I am giving away or selling at low low prices - what are you talking about?
As for as working for free... who do you think I was offering to work for free to gain experience to? it isn't to a customer, it's to people like you... videographers / cinematographers. If someone like you is willing to take me under his wing and bring me on a job, yes - I will work for free and hand over all the clips free of charge as well. I assume that would be the nice / correct thing to do.. isn't it? Who else would I hand RAW files to.... a customer??
And threatening me? Come on - you don't even know me or have your facts straight, you're going to go around "tattle-taling" on me" for something I did not / am not doing? Whats up with that? Not cool - not cool at all.
I am here asking for advice on how to get started, not dictating how it's going to be. I have been very thankful for all the advice I have gotten, and I have been listening to people- getting ideas... why didn't you just give me some guidance instead of reading me the riot-act and threading me?
Hopefully you realize you read me all wrong... I still am completely baffled by your post - I have been in so many forums and have never had someone call me out on my very first thread... ever!! I am sure that this business like any other is very competitive, but that doesn't mean you have to see a newcomer as an enemy. God, I talked about paying my dues... that means doing things right with the established professionals!!
Why don't you get to know me a little better before passing judgement.
Jason
I don't know what equipment you think I am giving away or selling at low low prices - what are you talking about?
As for as working for free... who do you think I was offering to work for free to gain experience to? it isn't to a customer, it's to people like you... videographers / cinematographers. If someone like you is willing to take me under his wing and bring me on a job, yes - I will work for free and hand over all the clips free of charge as well. I assume that would be the nice / correct thing to do.. isn't it? Who else would I hand RAW files to.... a customer??
And threatening me? Come on - you don't even know me or have your facts straight, you're going to go around "tattle-taling" on me" for something I did not / am not doing? Whats up with that? Not cool - not cool at all.
I am here asking for advice on how to get started, not dictating how it's going to be. I have been very thankful for all the advice I have gotten, and I have been listening to people- getting ideas... why didn't you just give me some guidance instead of reading me the riot-act and threading me?
Hopefully you realize you read me all wrong... I still am completely baffled by your post - I have been in so many forums and have never had someone call me out on my very first thread... ever!! I am sure that this business like any other is very competitive, but that doesn't mean you have to see a newcomer as an enemy. God, I talked about paying my dues... that means doing things right with the established professionals!!
Why don't you get to know me a little better before passing judgement.
Jason